Why White Russian lose in civil war ??

[RCW Mark]

I coulld even point to another interesting correlation - in all the White Regions - Siberia, South, Northern Russia due to historical reasons there was no institute of landlord landownership.

Absolutely, that's a key correlation. As a result the Tsarist era land-lords did not need to be fought against: hence they could go Nationalist (and generally Socialist) without fear.

However, in the Russian/Ukranian/Belorussian portions there was no great separatist party to compete seriously with the Bolsheviks. That left them the party of the workers and peasants by default.

An also Volga region with a number of Turkish and Finnish nations, vast areas in Siberia, Transbaikal and Far East, Kalmykia, partly Crimea, Karelia and then there were German settlements in Volga region and New Russia and Jews scattered all along the western part of the Empire. That is if we take Ukrainians and Belorussians as Russian-speaking, which is not true from the modern point of view. I think you agree that the Soviet power encountered much more problems in Russian-speaking Cossack regions then in Tatarstan or Mordovia.

Russians were the majority in all those areas. In fact, if you look at the history of those minorities you will find that they were generally great supporters of the Whites.

The Kalmycks went over lock, stock and barrel to the Whites.

The Bashkirs went White initially, but went Red after the Whites jerked them around.

The German colonists were solidly White, but large numbers were pacifist, so did not fight. Even then there were German colonist units in the White army (but not the Red). Stalin never forgave them, and their misery started well before the Nazi invasion.

I'll grant that the Jews were solidly Red. I'd forgotten about them.

The Caucasian mountaineers fought the Cossacks from time to time, true, but mainly fought for the Whites. Denikin had many Mountaineer divisions, whereas the Reds had basically none. After the end of the main RCW the Soviets crushed the Chechens, Ossetians and Dagestanis in campaigns of great bloodshed.

In Central Asia Soviet power surivived in almost complete isolation

Actually, it survived in the Russian-dominated cities only. It's writ did not run much outside of that until after many years of battling the Basmachis.

Then you thesis as I understood it was that all non-Russian regions were lost as a result of Revolution, in fact only the western regions (Poland in 1921 borders, Baltic States, Finland, Bessarabia) were. If you mean that large areas were temporary beyond the control of Moscow in 1918-21, then it was the case for territories with predominantly Russian-speaking population too.

You left out Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan, which were incorporated after the Civil War, and by external invasion.

That's a big "only" too. It was a sizeable portion of the former Russian Empire (I would guess a quarter by population). More importantly, it should have been the most solidly Bolshevik, because it had large industrial bases. It was also the most literate part of the empire.

My point is that language (and customary land laws, as you point out) is a good basis for determining the level of Bolshevik support. The number and educational level of working class people was a very poor basis. That is in complete contradiction to Marxist theory, and basically destroys the idea that the success of the Reds was because the working class united behind the Bolshevik revolution.

If another regime than the Bolshevik one presented a real alternative, then it was always taken. So much for popularity.

[Eric Johnson]

The non-Russian speaking portions of the Tsarist Empire included Finland, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan -- all of which were determinedly not Bolshevik (though most started out pretty firmly Socialist).

Similar to Russian territory Finland experienced a revolution. A revolutionary government was formed in Helsinki on January 28, 1918. This action of the workers of Helsinki was actually followed by the workers seizure of public buildings in Turku, Tampere, Pori, Kotka, Lahti, and Viipuri. A democratic constitution for the Finnish Socialist Workers' Republic was published on February 23. In the unoccupied parts of the Baltic provinces Soviet power had been formed at about the same time as in Petrograd. The same happened in Baku, Azerbaijan. Soviet power in these areas was overthrown due to foreign aggression.

You left out Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan, which were incorporated after the Civil War, and by external invasion.

Actually, the people of these countries rose up against their regimes and appealed to the Red Army for assistance. Armenia would not even exist without being saved by the Red Army and would be another province of Turkey.

[RCW Mark]

You left out Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan, which were incorporated after the Civil War, and by external invasion.

Actually, the people of these countries rose up against their regimes and appealed to the Red Army for assistance. Armenia would not even exist without being saved by the Red Army and would be another province of Turkey.

Soviet power in these areas was overthrown due to foreign aggression.

Really, Eric, a little attention to such things as facts would go a long way. The "interventions" in these areas were trivial.

A few Germans turned up in Finland, after the Reds had already lost the war.

Likewise the "foreign aggression" in Baku lasted a grand total of two weeks, and occured after the local Reds had already been overthrow.

(I suppose the reason all these non-Russian speaking regions we are speaking about threw off the Soviet/Russian yoke again with the fall of Communism was "foreign aggression" again?)

[Eric Johnson]

You left out Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan, which were incorporated after the Civil War, and by external invasion.

On 26 April 1920, the Provisional Revolutionary Committee of Azerbaijan was formed. On the night of April 27 an insurrection was carried out in Baku which overthrew the Muscavat regime. All power passed into the hands of the Azerbaijan Revolutionary Committee, which proclaimed Azerbaijan a soviet socialist republic. The Azrevkom appealed to Russia with a proposal for an alliance and military aid.

The action of Armenian workers against the Dashnak regime took the shape of an armed revolt in May 1920, which resulted in the establishment of Soviet power in Aleksandropol, Kars, Sarykamysh, Kamo, Zanegzur, and Kazakh-Shamshadin. But the Dashnak regime succeeded with the aid of the Entente imperialists in putting down the May uprising. In September 1920 Turkey again initiated military actions against Armenia. Turkish troops occupied almost two-thirds of the territory of Armenia. On November 29, 1920, the workers of Armenia under the leadership of the Bolsheviks stirred up a rebellion against the Dashnak regime, and they overthrew the Dashnak regime in joint action with the Red Army and the 1st Armenian Communist Regiment from Azerbaijan. By its declaration of Nov. 29, 1920, the Armenian Reovlutionary Committee proclaimed Armenia a soviet socialist republic.

The Georgia regime signed a treaty with the RSFSR on 7 May 1920. According to this treaty, the Mensheviks were to break off all ties with the Russian counterrevolution, withdraw foreign military units from Georgia, and legalize Bolshevik organizations. But the Mensheviks violated the conditions of this agreement. The Bolsheviks stepped up preparations for the overthrow of the Menshevik regime. An armed uprising that came to cover all of Georgia began in Lori, Gori, Borchali, Dusheti, Racha, and other districts on the night of Feb. 11-12, 1921. On February 16, the Revolutionary Committee of Georgia was established in Shulaveri. Proclaiming Georgia a soviet socialist republic, on February 18 the Revolutionary Committee called on the people of Georgia to seize power in the provinces and to form local revolutionary committees. The uprising developed successfully. The Revolutionary Committee turned to the RSFSR for aid. The Soviet government responsed to the Revolutionary Committee’s appeal and on Feb. 25, 1921, units of the Eleventh Red Army, along with detachments of Georgian insurgents, entered Tblisi and overthrew the Menshevik regime.

[RCW Mark]

That's one way of rewriting history. In each case a small coup by committed Bolsheviks -- which would have been quickly suppressed without external help -- provides the excuse for annexation.

Have you noticed that when the RSFSR intervened on behalf of one party in a dispute, by actual invasion, that you call that "appealing to the Red Army for assistance" and have no problem. Even when it annexes the invaded country!

Yet if the British or French or US sent supplies on behalf of the other side, you term that "foreign aggression". Despite the fact that the Allies weren't even remotely interested in annexation.

Lenin and Stalin both needed pretexts for their invasions. Being the morally superior Communists that they were, they could not just invade for the purposes of expansion. So they manufactured petty "coups", which they then needed to "support". So much for their position of "self-determination of peoples".

Their actual moral position with respect to international relations was made pretty clear by the treaty of Rapallo -- coming from the loud opponents of secret treaties and realpolitik.

[azulmania]

Have you noticed that when the RSFSR intervened on behalf of one party in a dispute, by actual invasion, that you call that "appealing to the Red Army for assistance" and have no problem. Even when it annexes the invaded country!

Yet if the British or French or US sent supplies on behalf of the other side, you term that "foreign aggression". Despite the fact that the Allies weren't even remotely interested in annexation.

Georgia, Arzebaijan and Armenia were part of the Russian Empire lost after the WWI.
France and Uk were not.

[RCW Mark]

Good point -- ruined a bit because the Soviets had signed treaties recognising them as separate. At that point their invasion becomes foreign intervention.

Anyway, just because the Tsar had ruled those countries does not make them Russian. Each regime that succeeded had equal right to exist in their region. Just because one lot -- the Russians -- historically took the view that they had the right to conquer all the others does not make it right. (And the Whites were as bad as the Reds in this regard.)

This indeed after Lenin so loudly proclaimed self-determination of peoples, unlike the nasty Tsarist regime.

[Hauptmann Kloss]

Good point -- ruined a bit because the Soviets had signed treaties recognising them as separate. At that point their invasion becomes foreign intervention.

Anyway, just because the Tsar had ruled those countries does not make them Russian. Each regime that succeeded had equal right to exist in their region. Just because one lot -- the Russians -- historically took the view that they had the right to conquer all the others does not make it right. (And the Whites were as bad as the Reds in this regard.)

This indeed after Lenin so loudly proclaimed self-determination of peoples, unlike the nasty Tsarist regime.

I see your views involve with time. You were including Poles in your assessment of White Russian forces on first page of this thread.

Anyway, Whites lost because Commies captured and executed Tsar and his family. There was no single authority left in Russia to unite opposition. Have Nikolai survived....

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a little complement here..........................

STALIN'S PLAN FOR DEFEATING DENIKIN*
[From an article by V. Meliko, appearing in Krasnaya Zvesda, 14 November 1937.]
Abstracted by Lieutenant Colonel L.K. Underhill, Judge Advocate General's Department.

*Denikin at this time commanded the White Armies on the Southern Front. He had reorganized Kolchak (on the Eastern Front) as supreme commander. These armies, together with those of Yudenich in the west, and forces at Archangel. had practically encircled the Red forces and were endeavoring to overthrow the Bolshevik regime.

Strengthened by assistance from the Entente, in the summer of 1919, Denikin's forces advanced from the North Caucasus region and by 2 July reached the line: Yekaterinoslav -Tsaritsyn. However, the latter place had lost its strategic importance; as Frunze had already driven Kolchak behind the White River, a junction of Kolchak with Denikin was no longer possible.

Denikin's forces now held an immense territory: Crimea, North Caucasus, the Donbas, the Don territory, and the Ukraine.

On 2 July, Denikin and Vrangel arrived at Tsaritsyn. The latter proposed the following plan: to halt temporarily the attack of the Volunteer, Don, and Caucasus Armies, fortifying the relatively narrow front between the Don and Volga Rivers; to organize the service of the rear; and to form reserves; then to detach a portion of Vrangel's Caucasus Army to capture Astrakhan; the remainder of the Caucasus Army (3-4 cavalry corps) to concentrate at Kharkov and to move directly on Moscow, striking the Red Army in rear.

Denikin, however, saw in this proposal a plan on the part of his most dangerous rival to be the first to reach Moscow. On 3 July he issued a directive to his forces for the capture of Moscow: the Volunteer Army under Mai-Mayevsky to attack in the direction: Orel -Tula -Moscow; the Don Army under Sidorin to attack in the directions: Voronezh -Kozlov -Riazan and Novy Oskol-Yelets -Kashira; the Caucasus Army to advance by the longest route: Penza -Ruzayevka -Arzamas -Nizhny -Novgorod -Vladimir -Moscow. Denikin boasted that he would be in Moscow by Christmas of 1919.

The Entente furnished Denikin with tens of thousands of rifles, machine guns, and guns, millions of shells, and hundreds of millions of cartridges.
As the remnants of Kolchak's forces were continuing their retreat into Siberia, Denikin captured Kursk and marched on Orel, while Yudenich moved on Petrograd. At this time Lenin sent Stalin to the southern front, where the Red armies were in full retreat.

Source: Review of Military Literature. March 1938.

More follows. Cheers. Raúl M .

[Karelia]

One of the reasons for the White Russian defeat was their unwillingness to allow independence for the minority nationalities within the (ex-)Empire. E.g. Yudenich was in late 1919 seeking for Finnish support for his attack against Petrograd. Yudenich's old friend General Mannerheim (Commander of the Finnish Army) agreed. At that time the city was only lightly defended.

Finland would have taken part if Koltchak (nominally the leader of the White Armies) would have agreed to grant Finland her independence. Since he chose not to the Finnish president Ståhlberg rejected the request. Yudenich's attack did not succeed.

Had Finland joined the attack Petrograd would have likely been taken. Since it was the capital and of vast importance in both tactical and psychological sense it might have had massive consequences.

[steverodgers801]

There was no central leader, there were a lot of various groups that never coordinated their efforts. The reds were willing to promise land and bread, while the whites were planning to restore seized property to the wealthy, the reds had the key population centers, the reds promised independence to break away countries. Yes the reds did not keep their promises, but enough people believed them.

[ML59]

The fact that the reds didn't keep their promises is only partially true. They for sure seized all lands from great landowners and, at the beginning, distributed them to the mass of landless peasants and village communities. Only much later they started a campaign of forced statalization of all available lands (the infamous collectivization) that created gigantic internal immigration movements and millions of displaced persons.

[Karelia]

There was no central leader, there were a lot of various groups that never coordinated their efforts. The reds were willing to promise land and bread, while the whites were planning to restore seized property to the wealthy, the reds had the key population centers, the reds promised independence to break away countries. Yes the reds did not keep their promises, but enough people believed them.

That's all very true. Still the outcome of the civil war was far from clear and the Reds might have been defeated with some extra help.

[tigre]

Hello to all ; thanks for all your comments, pals . Now a little more..........................

STALIN'S PLAN FOR DEFEATING DENIKIN.

The Red plan elaborated by the commander in chief and approved by Trotsky was still in effect: to strike a main blow with the Ninth and Tenth Armies in the direction of Tsaritsyn -Novorossiisk across the Don steppes. This region was absolutely roadless, impassible for infantry and artillery; and, besides, the attack would advance through the Cossack villages, thus solidifying the Cossacks behind Denikin.

Stalin therefore elaborated a new plan of counteroffensive as follows: to bring on a general engagement in the areas: Kromy -Orel and Voronezh -Kastornaya; to make the main blow through the regions of Kharkov, Donbas, and Rostov, whose laboring populations favored the Reds; thus to drive a wedge between the Volunteer and Don Armies. This would make it possible to beat the enemy in detail, and to capture the important Don railroad net, Denikin's principal line of communications (Voronezh -Rostov), and the coal mines of the Donbas. It would also tend to disaffect the Cossacks against Denikin, who would try to move the Cossack units to the west.

Lenin approved Stalin's plan, and removed Trotsky and a large number of his supporters from the southern front.

The autumn of 1919 was a very difficult time for the Reds. Denikin held the wheat regions of the Ukraine and Kursk. The White Poles held the regions of Minsk and Zhitomir. Mamontov's cavalry was plundering with impunity the villages in the Red rear at Tambov, Yelets, and Kozlov, removing cattle, textiles, food supplies and silverware. Under-cover subversive organizations were active in Orel, Moscow, Tula, Yologda and Petrograd. The crisis in provisions and fuel led to epidemics among the workers and among the troops at the front.

By the end of September the Whites held the line through Berdichev -Kiev -south of Orel- Woronezh -Tsaritsyn -Astrakhan. In their rear, however, there were continuous peasant uprisings against Denikin's policy of transforming the non-Russian inhabitants into slaves without rights. Denikin had to use his small reserves as gendarmerie to suppress these uprisings. Denikin's choice of the area: Donbas -Kharkov -Voronezh -Kursk for his main blow was unfortunate for him, as this region was hostile to him.

Source: Review of Military Literature. March 1938.

So it seems was a mix between lack of leadership, selfishness and policy towards non-Russians. More follows. Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a little more..........................

STALIN'S PLAN FOR DEFEATING DENIKIN.

On 13 October the Whites took Orel and attempted the capture of Tula, where were located the munitions factories supplying the Red Army. A bloody battle took place on the 500-kilometer front: Konotop -Dmitrovsk -Kromy -Orel -Yelets -Usman -Bobrov. At this time the Whites had 120,000 bayonets and sabers, 600 guns, 2,400 machine guns; the Reds (Twelfth, Fourteenth,Thirteenth, and Eighth Armies and Budenny's cavalry corps) had 130,000 bayonets and sabers, 600 guns, 2,689 machine guns. Denikin ordered his forces to capture the line: Gomel-Briansk -Tula -Penza by 20 October. The Reds, under orders not to retreat another step, resisted the attack, and began massing for a counteroffensive on the flanks in the Kromy region, and at Voronezh (when Budenny's I Cavalry Corps would strike the two cavalry corps of Mamontov and Shurko), while fortifying the Orel region: A shock group was assembled near Kromy.

During the sixteen days' battle the Fourteenth and Thirteenth Armies crushed the left flank of Denikin's strategic front. The Whites at first held on stubbornly in the Kromy region; by skilful maneuvering they succeeded in defeating in detail the Red shock group regiments, which were dispersed on a 70 kilometer front. On the night 24-25 October, however, Stalin ordered Ordzhonikidze (member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Fourteenth Army) to concentrate the shock group, to make a coordinated attack and to annihilate the enemy in his front, promising that other forces would encircle the enemy on the south. Accordingly, the Fourteenth Army, captured Kromy and followed the retreating enemy, while the Thirteenth Army, which had recaptured Orel on the 20th, struck the enemy in the direction of Kursk. The whole left flank of Denikin's strategic flank was crushed, and the Whites began a rapid withdrawal toward Kharkov.

To the eastward, Budenny, outnumbered two to one by the cavalry on his front, massed his forces, and, after careful reconnaissance, sought to strike the enemy in flank. Shurko, however, launched an attack with the two cavalry corps against the Reds. His leading Kuban Division, losing direction and becoming confused, was surrounded and almost annihilated by Budenny's sabers. The latter, with the assistance of units of the Eighth Army, now attacked the Whites on three sides, and captured Voronezh.

Source: Review of Military Literature. March 1938.

More follows. Cheers. Raúl M .