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Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan.
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Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby yaroslav on 03 Nov 2009 08:46

Hi Dear participants of the Axis Forum.
First of all, I'm sorry for my not perfect english.

I would like to rise for my side quite interesting topic: "Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?".

I'm not one-sided and need to get your glances on the history of WW2.
I have investigated different resources and books of western writters about WW2 and really confused.
Glance of the western historics especially historics from the UK is too strange for me. I have read military magazines of NATO devoted to the best generals of WW2 and the best tactics.

So, reading these resources I can summarize, that victory in WW2 was achieve because USA joined to the anti-axis blox.
Brave solders of UK and USA destroyed the most important and strong units of Wermaht.
So, the best commanders of WW2 were: General Douglas MacArthur, General Mark Clark, Erich von Manstein, George Patton ...

What is about Red Army? Is it true that even Australian kangaroo contributed more to the victory than russian solder? (I saw documentary film on BBC on this).
What is the share of Red Army in victory.
Due to the Antony Beevor's books, while western armies were fighting with Wermaht, russian troops looted, raped and killed civilian population.

Is Stalingrad battle only one that well known by the West?

I would like to get some feedback on it, and would like to share my photos from the Archive of Ministry of Defence about Red Army in WW2.
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby yaroslav on 03 Nov 2009 08:55

Also, I like to meet real participants of the battles 1941 - 1945.
So, I'm talking with them and try to collect infromation from the first hands. Living in USSR we had one side of the history. And now during several years I'm trying to get more information about different aspects of the "Great Patriotic War 1941 - 1945". Also, the most interesting points are which were hidden and not popular (like looting, treatment to the civilian population in Germany during 1944 - 1945).

Actually now there are many problems to agree some historical events between Russia and Ukraine. So, talkings about western view on WW2 are interesting like trying to find agree between Ukraine and Russia on participation in events of Great Patriotic War.

So, what do you thing about this issues?
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Chinaski1917 on 03 Nov 2009 10:34

Well ... is the Earth round ?
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RE: Did The Red Army Contribute To The Victory In W.W. II?

Postby Robert Rojas on 04 Nov 2009 09:13

Greetings to both citizen Yaroslav and the community as a whole. Well tovarich, in respect to both your initial posting of Tuesday - November 03, 2009 - 8:46am and your subsequent posting of Tuesday - November 03, 2009 - 8:55am, old Uncle Bob is of the opinion that you have a significant public relations problem with the very title of your thread. From what I can deduce from your commentary, I believe you have articulated a substantive concern with the benign neglect of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union at the hands of various Anglo-American historians. Now, In light of this substantive concern, have you considered retitling your thread in order to properly reflect its intended orientation? In terms of a practical solution, you might want to retitle your thread to potentially resemble the following topic: IS THE STALINGRAD BATTLE THE ONLY ONE WELL KNOWN BY THE WEST? With such an expedient change, I rather suspect that you will see a respectable increase with your thread's readership. It's just something to consider for the future. Finally, old Uncle Bob will refrain from interjecting ANY commentary whatsoever on how the contemporary Russian Federation and how the contemporary Ukrainian Republic interpret their synthesized roles during the course of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union. Any such commentary will only aggravate the not so latent POLITICAL intransigence which exists between these two forum constituencies. Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this provocative topic of interest - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your particular corner of the Commonwealth of Independent States.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Qvist on 06 Nov 2009 12:51

Er, only blatantly uninformed people in the West would have the idea that the contribution of the Red Army to the defeat of Hitler was anything other than huge. American and British historical writing tends to be focussed on the American and British experience, which is only natural. But if there are general works of history that ignores or fails to take account of the importance of the Eastern Front, they are not ones I have come across. You see sometimes authors arguing that the Eastern Front has been ignored, but I'd have to say that this does not make sense to me. When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s and were learning about the war on a fairly simple level thorugh things like TV documentaries, popular accounts and even comics, there was never any question in my mind about the general importance of the Eastern campaign, so evidently even the lowest quality strata of western accounts managed to convey that point quite effectively. Perhaps there was not so much attention on it as there was on brave Spitfire pilots and D-Day, but that doesn't mean it was not realised that it was crucial.

You have a badly wrong impression of Anthony Beevor's books, by the way. You would find that both his Stalingrad and Berlin books heavily emphasise the importance of the Eastern Front. I am continually amazed by all the hullaballoo around them, as far as I can see they don't contain anything much that is very new or different, or which ought to be particularly controversial. They are just well-written and hence sell well.

cheers
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Ostkatze on 08 Nov 2009 03:32

Yaroslav - first of all, your English is fine. Secondly, anyone who responds to you in here is into the field, so you're really talking about the views of the general public. Most pop history books are purchased for dear old dad like an Xmas tie and so are deliberately full of hero worship and flag waving. Most commercial documentaries fall into this mould.
The traditional British saga keys on the Few, the Dambusters and Desert Rats chiefly as a sad farewell to the days of national greatness.
The US Hollywood line long ago decided on stories of nine guys with a BAR and a Thompson wandering around being assaulted by hundreds of fanatical Nazis with Tigers, air and artillery support, with the Yanks winning by a combination of guts and superior brains.
It's just figured to sell better that way.
But we're talking about the general public. The same ones who would be hard pressed to place New York on a map of the USA.
Your specific problem with the Soviets goes a little deeper. When, in conversation with the average American, they notify me that the Russians would have been dead without all those thousands of US tanks; when I start to talk about real things they begin to look at me as if I'm on mushrooms. There's obviously an anti-red bigotry at the root level, tinged, I think, with a strong need to deny the losses actually inflicted on the Nazis by the Russians.
But what you're describing are just the biased opinions of the Great Unwashed and the businesses that profit off making them feel smug. Good luck fixing that.... Neil.
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby der alte Landser on 09 Nov 2009 02:11

I feel like it's important to keep this subject in context. As mentioned previously in this thread, anyone with in-depth knowledge of World War II understands the contributions the Soviet Union made to victory. The topic of who did what in achieving victory is not even taught in schools, even in regard to our own forces. This topic could easily be titled, "What the American forces in the Pacific contributed," or "Italy was important to victory."
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby yaroslav on 18 Nov 2009 08:11

Yes, understand. Thanks for your comments.

Actually, some people think that this topic is provocative and has not sense at all.

I believe that all who posts and participates here are serious people and interested in history.
I see the problem from the both sides of former partners in WW2. From the west and east sided.
And here I’m trying to find different and fair view and opinions.

Thanks everebody who is not blaming my topic and posting own fair views.

For example, as I said previously, I had only soviet view on the history of WW2 during education. It is true, when we had been learned that only Soviet Union played central role here.

But my grandfather told me that American land-lease canned stewed meat saved his life, soviet solders suffered from starvation during 1941 – 1942 and even during 1943. And soviet officials did not public such facts. Also, only ignoramus could ignore the fact of using APCs, different modifications of planes and armor which were delivered due to the land-lease agreements to the USSR.
So, for me, it is important to be objective, especially if the troops were suspected in war crimes.

Regarding Antony Beevor, I like his book Stalingrad. And while talking about great operation and Stalingrad battle, I cannot skip the great losses and defeat of Red Army in operation of Rzhev before (known as the "Rzhev meat grinder").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Rzhev
total Soviet losses are estimated at between 500,000 and 1,000,000 men. It is real shame of Zhukov.

So, memory and objective attitude are important.
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby henryk on 18 Nov 2009 22:18

yaroslav on Today, 2:11 am
For example, as I said previously, I had only soviet view on the history of WW2 during education. It is true, when we had been learned that only Soviet Union played central role here.

But my grandfather told me that American land-lease canned stewed meat saved his life, soviet solders suffered from starvation during 1941 – 1942 and even during 1943. And soviet officials did not public such facts. Also, only ignoramus could ignore the fact of using APCs, different modifications of planes and armor which were delivered due to the land-lease agreements to the USSR.

My uncle in Poland told me that his whole village was amazed that the columns of the Red Army passing through in 1944 had so many vehicles identified with "USA".
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Alexgch on 21 Nov 2009 12:06

No informed person would deny the Red Army's contributions to the Allies' eventual victory. The Soviets make a huge contribution to the war effort through their sacrifice. Maybe it would be more interesting to look at whether the Allies' victory would be possible if US remain neutral to the end.
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby yaroslav on 15 Jan 2010 21:11

Yes, real problem in the USSR history, that support of west was really underestimated. So, I cannot recall that during my school education I had been taught something about contribution of USA or UK to the force of Red Army.

So, my grandfather told me that good food was a real problem in Red Army till occupation of Germany. But US canned food saved his life during severe war conditions.
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Kelvin on 18 Aug 2010 12:10

The Red Army did contribute to the victory of World War Two against Nazi Germany. The huge Eastern Front exhausted German manpower. German suffered heavy casaulties in war of attrition with Russia. The war of attrition cost German over million casualties in late 1943.Many German divisions were destroyed ; the German Sixth Army were annhilated in Stalingrad during 1942-43, German Army Group Center ( Fourth Army, Ninth Army and Third Panzer Army) were destroyed in the summer of 1944. German XIII Armeekorps were crushed in Brody in July 1944 while German Sixth Army were annhilated again in Jassy-Kishinev in August 1944. German defensive lines was shattered during the Vistula-Oder operation and all of the German troop were cleared out of Poland in January 1945.German allies , Romania, Bulgaria and Finland were knocked out of the war by the Red Army.

But of course, without US and British support, it was difficult for Russian to win the war.Without US supply of over 400,000 motor vehicles, it was hard for Russian to move forward to the Reich. The allied bombing diverted many German luftwaffe and flak asset to the defence of the Third Reich.(Over 1.5 million people for flak work) To bring the British empire to his knees, Hitler also spent so much on buildig U-boat for Atlantic war.And the aerial bombing also affected German war production.

Apart from fighting of the Red Army, Soviet military production was also remarkable. Russian produced over 40,000 T-34 tank for their war against German forces. Russian weapon design was outstanding too. German was scared by Russian T-34 and KV tanks in 1941 :wink: . Again, they were shocked by the power of Russian 120mm mortar and Kashysha BM-13 rocket launcher. German even copied Russian 120 mm mortar for their own use. Russian gun like A-19 122mm gun, ML-20 152mm gun-howitzer, M-30 122 mm howitzer, 76 mm guns, B-4 203mm gun, all were excellent design. Russian motorized infantry were mostly equipped with PPSh-41 and the this level was unmatched by her German counterpart. :wink:
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Chinaski1917 on 08 Sep 2010 06:20

German was scared by Russian T-34 and KV tanks in 1941


Well I dont think that the German intelligence servives were that informed about Russian Tanks. They actually downgraded their amount and strength.



Without US supply of over 400,000 motor vehicles, it was hard for Russian to move forward to the Reich.


Interesting , what kind of motor vehicles and could you give us a source ?

The allied bombing diverted many German luftwaffe and flak asset to the defence of the Third Reich.(Over 1.5 million people for flak work)


This too, could you give us a source ?

-thanks in advance
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Sid Guttridge on 08 Sep 2010 09:59

Cinaski - You only have to look up Lend-Lease on the internet to see how extensive US aid was.

The USSR concentrated heavily on producing weaponry, but was not so good at supplying all the rear services equipment needed. The 400,000+ US vehicles were more modern and of better quality than their Soviet equivalents (which were often copies of old US models). The four-wheeled-drive US trucks are widely thought to have been key to mechanizing Soviet infantry during the second part of WWII. Although pictures of Soviet infantry clinging to the back of T-34s are common, most Soviet infantry were really carried in trucks.

Other areas where US equipment became vital were in the provision of new railway locomotives and in the supply of radios to Soviet combat aircraft and tanks.

Generally speaking the key Lend-Lease supplies were not so much weaponry but such supporting equipment and components. Without them, much Soviet weaponry would have been less effective.

If you look up a list list of German Flak Divisions on the internet you will find that those with the most heavy guns (88mm and 128mm) were inside Axis Europe defending against Allied bombing. The high velocity 88mm guns, in particular, were also potentially highly effective anti-tank guns. If the thousands of heavy anti-aircraft guns were not needed in the Reich, they could instead have become many thousands of anti-tank guns to the Eastern Front, thereby making Red Army armoured operations far more difficult.
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Re: Did Red Army contribute to the victory in WW2?

Postby Ironmachine on 08 Sep 2010 10:25

Chinaski1917 wrote:Interesting , what kind of motor vehicles and could you give us a source ?

Take a look here http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/index.html
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