52nd Guards Rifle Division

[Otis]

Here are 2 maps that will help.

Modern topographic:




Satellite/aerial hybrid:



Match the forests to see how close.
Of course there will be changes since 1943.
I drew in the approximate hill and AT Ditch locations. On satellite images can be seen two lines in area we think is AT ditch that may or may not be related to earthworks circa 1943. You would have to visit closely the area and examine which I hope to do in next couple of years.

Over on the east side of map you can see the high resolution image overlap.
Other areas of interest later in battle are shown in high res.
Look on Google Earth or Terra Server at 50 45'17.12"N
36 25'35.71"E to locate hill 217.

[panzerfiles]

Otis,

Here is a scan of the area from the 1942 1:50k Topo map. Hill 217 is located right on the road.

[Otis]

Thanks Panzerfiles.

I guessed it would have been in the middle of the highest contour.
The google earth height indicator has it approximately where I placed.
As you can see there is slight difference on both of the ww2 era maps, but little more than a couple of hundred meters.

I would be interested in a full copy of the map segment you posted.
I had another look over the Kosave 2 report for LSAH, I think they were stalled up before height 228 also.
South of the burial mound at that point looks another perfect choke point between ravines.

[charly]

Hello im interestet in offical strengh or losses of the 52nd Guards Rifle Division in 08/43 and 09/43 or later !

I have some info`s from german side ( Ic Feindnachrichten / russische Gefangenaussagen ) !

18.08.43 Gefangenen-Vernehmung ( from german 3.Panzerkorps )" 52.GSD: 1 Leutnant vom GSR.151 gefangen am 12.08.43 bei Alexjewka:
Division in den Juli-Kämpfen 75% Mannschaftverluste ! Im Raum Prochorowka bis auf 60 bis 62% des Sollbestandes mit MarschKompanie aufgefüllt ! "

there are also many other informations of russian prisoners in 08/43 !

"18.08.43 Gefangenen-Vernehmung ( from german 3.Panzerkorps)
Division bei Alexekjewka eingekesselt , und bis auf etwa 20% vernichet oder gefangen "

and so one

What about russian sources ??

[Art]

The division reported 689 enlisted men and NCOs killed in action and 988 missing and prisoners during the month of July, officers losses were at least 49 men killed (no info for the period 20-31 July):
http://s43.radikal.ru/i100/1007/59/0a69060543b6.jpg
http://s41.radikal.ru/i094/1007/c7/a1fc00530bae.jpg
Total losses were up to 4000, as far as I remember. The personnel strength as of 5 July 1943 was 8900 men (901 officers, 2246 NCOs, 5753 privates):
http://militera.lib.ru/h/zamulin_vn/21.html

[Art]

I've checked Zamulin, according to corrected information the division lost from 5 to 16 July 724 men killed (48 officers, 169 NCOs, 507 privates), 1040 missing (65/336/639), 13 captured (0/2/11), 2046 wounded (142/468/1436), 71 sick (4/20/47), 1 officer for other reasons, total 3 895 (TsAMO f. 203, op. 2843, l.15, 19). It seems that few losses were suffered after 16 July to the end of the month.
In addition from 30 July to 20 August 1943 36 officers, 58 NCOs and 231 privates were reported killed in action. TsAMO f.58, op.18001, d. 588, l.154 :
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Image2/getimage?id=3092114
TsAMO f.33, op. 11458, d.116, l.224:
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Image2/getimage?id=53333699
From 20 to 30 August - 13 NCOs and 29 privates killed, 55 officers, 108 NCOs and 483 privates missing and 3 officers and 5 privates captured. TsAMO f.58, op.18001, d.715, l.209:
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Image2/getimage?id=55812663
TsAMO f.33, op. 11458, d.119, l.228:
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Image2/getimage?id=3119228
Most missing were lost on 15 August 1943 at Alekseyevka

[charly]

Hello Art , Thanks for your helpfull Infos

Another German Source
From 3.Pz.K Ic Meldung 18.08.43

52.GSD from 14.08. o 17.08.43 = 363 Prisoners

Tabelle :Ic 3.PzK vom 18.08.43 , Aufschlüsselung der Gefangenen v. 14. – 17.8.43
Gefangene Offiziere Uffz. Sonstige Summe
52.GSD
GSR.151: 209 6 5 - 220
GSR.153: 52 1 - - 53
GSR.155: 79 2 - - 81
G.A.R.124: 9 - - - 9 363
51.GSD:
GSR.154: 26 - - - 26
GSR.156: 9 1 - - 10
GSR.158: 82 4 - - 86
G.A.R.122: 52 4 - - 56 178
67.GSD:
GSR.201: 1 - - - 1 1
71.GSD:
GSR.210: 2 - - - 2 2
90.GSD:
GSR.268: 213 9 - 7 229
GSR.272: 277 7 1 - 285
GSR.274: 49 4 - 4 57
G.A.R.193: 1 - - - 1 572
163.SD:
SR.529: 124 3 - - 127
SR.759: 329 3 1 - 332
SR.1318: 2 - - - 2
A.R.365: 8 1 - - 9
Pi.Btl.230: 2 - - - 2 472

Gefangene Offiziere Uff. Sonstige Summe
VI.Pz.Korps:
22.Pz.Brig.: 1 - - - 1
112.Pz.Brig.272: 2 - - - 2
200.Pz.Brig.: 1 1 - - 2
6.mot.S.Brig.: 25 - 7 - 32 37
XVIII.Pz.Korps:
32.mot.S..Brig.: 5 - - - 5 5
III.,mot.mech.Korps:
49.Pz.Brig.: 64 - - - 64
3.mot.S..Brig.: 4 - - - 4
10.mot.S..Brig.: 3 - - - 3 71

28.,Pak-Brig.:
538.Pak.Rgt.: 1 - - - 1 1
17.Pz.Brig.: 1 - - - 1 1
59.Pz.Brig..: 1 1 - - 2 2
27.Pi.Btl.. 7 - - - 7 7
71.Pi.Btl..: 5 - - - 5 5
133.Pi.Btl..: 2 - - - 2 2
163.Pi.Btl..: 1 - - - 1 1
Zivilisten und Gefangene
unbek. Einheiten 24 - - - 24 24


total 1744 Prisoners (, from 14-17.08.43 , 3.Pz.K)


TsAMO Data´s for missings from 01.08-20.08.43 avaiable for 52.GSD ??

The 383 russian Prisoners from 52.GSD between 14.08 to 17.08.43( captured by 3.Pz.K) , figures maybe include
in your datas from 20.08 to 30.08.43 ( Question) ???

"Your datas 20.08.-30.08 = 55 officers, 108 NCOs and 483 privates missing and 3 officers and 5 privates captured "

no missing datas from 30.07- to 20.08.43 ???

From 30.07 to 30.08.43 (52.GSD) only 325 men + 42 men killed = together 367 men killed,
if your datas are correct !

Losses for 08/43 for 52.GSD are fewer as i expected ( 52.GSD was part of the Offensive 03.08-23-08.43)if the datas are correct !

( My theory, more than 4.000(min) to 4500(max) losses only for 03.08 to 23.08.43 for 52.GSD)

[Art]

I don't have a complete losses reports of the division. Numbers I quoted are from name list of irrevocable losses submitted by the divisional staff. Sometimes (not always) the number of names in the lists was checked versus the number of losses reported by the units in a losses report (so-called form No.8). Since name lists are available online there is an opportunity to find the number of killed, missing and captured (but not wounded and sick and noncombat losses) reported by the unit without looking into a losses report itself. Complete information on losses and strength can be found in TsAMO only. As a rule of thumb number of wounded was 3x number of killed, number of noncombat losses and sick was usually small - several dozens per each ten-days period.

TsAMO Data´s for missings from 01.08-20.08.43 avaiable for 52.GSD ??

The 383 russian Prisoners from 52.GSD between 14.08 to 17.08.43( captured by 3.Pz.K) , figures maybe include
in your datas from 20.08 to 30.08.43 ( Question) ???

Number of missing lost on circa 15 August was fully counted only after 20 August and was reported with a delay in the report covering the period of 20-30 August. Almost all missing men in this report were actually lost on 15 August at Alekseyevka, that can be seen from the name lists, where the date and place of loss is given. No missing were reported in the report covering 1-20 August. The same thing occurred in July, all losses of missing in "Citadel" were reported only after 20 July. As a rule the unit needed some time to settle the situation with personnel.

[charly]

Menas 367 Killed + ( 3 x 367 Wounded ) + 654 Prisoners = 2122 Losses for 52.Guards Rifle Division for
08/43 !

Gefangenenaussage 18.08.43 "52.GSD In zweiter Staffel über Bogduchoff nach Alexejewka marschiert !"

Annother document

"Ic Meldung vom 02.09.43
Monatliche Meldung über feindliche Ersatzführung und Ersatztruppenteile vor 3.Pz.K
für August 1943!
52.GSD :
17.8.43 = 30 Mann für GSR.151 (Russen) ! 21.8.43 = 700 Mann Ersatz (Usbeken,Russen,Ukrainer )
Jahrgang 1890 -1925 von Reserve.S.R.759 in Bogoduchow"

Second Source from 3.Pz.K
"Ic Meldung vom 05.09.43
52.GSD : 1 Gefangener des GSR.155 , Regiment erhielt am 27.8 = 600 Mann Ersatz ( für GSR.155 ??) , Weiter Ersatzführung unbekannter Stärke von aufgelöstem S.R.735 der 204.SD aus Obojan."

Replacement = 30 Men (17.08.) + 700 Men (21.08) + 600 Men (27.08.) = 1330 Men for 08/1943

additional Replacement unknown strength of dissolved SR.735 from 204 Rifle Division from Obojan for
52.GSD !

credibility of interrogations and observations !

another interrogation from 01.09.43 sayed that :
" Gefangenenvernehmung GSR153 ( Regiment) soll voll aufgefrischt sein ...."

Means : GSR 153 fully refreshed with replacements !

Remember At 17:08:43, the division was being destroyed as according to German sources ,
now (01.09.43) GSR.153 fully refreshed !

what do the original russian sources say about replacements in 08/1943 ????

According to the lower prison interviews in September, one could assume that the losses were smaller! Between 11.09. 3:10:43 and no further information about prisoners 52.GSD! From 5.10. to early December appears 52.GSD not greater in the German files!

Division herausgezogen aus der Front??

Info´s from russian side avaible ??

Do you also have info on losses in September and replacement for 52.GSD ???

[Art]

Division's losses in September 1943.
30 August - 10 September: 10 officers, 55 NCOs, 153 privates killed; 3 officers, 18 NCOs, 43 privates missing.
10-20 September: 12+27+96 killed, 1+1+11 captured
20-30 September: 1+13+12 killed.
The sources are documents from www.obd-memorial.ru again.

what do the original russian sources say about replacements in 08/1943 ????

I can't help here. I have a book, which probably says something about the unit's strength, I'll check it.

From 5.10. to early December appears 52.GSD not greater in the German files!

Not surprising, the unit was transferred to the Baltic Front in October 1943.

[charly]

Division's losses in September 1943.
30 August - 10 September: 10 officers, 55 NCOs, 153 privates killed; 3 officers, 18 NCOs, 43 privates missing.
10-20 September: 12+27+96 killed, 1+1+11 captured
20-30 September: 1+13+12 killed

Total 09/43 = 379 dead + (3 x 379) + 77 wounded, missing = 1593 total losses for 09/43 (52.GSD)
or
Total 09/43 = 379 dead + (4 x 379) + 77 wounded, missing = 1972 total losses for 09/43 (52.GSD)

With the rule wounded 3 or 4 Times Deads !

Replacement = 30 Men (17.08.) + 700 Men (21.08) + 600 Men (27.08.) = 1330 Men for 08/1943

I have found annother source for replacement in 08/1943 with higher values as in my previous post!

"Ic Meldung vom 05.09.43 bei AOK 8:
Ersatzführung bei 52.GSD : 20.08.43 = 2200 Mann von Ers.Rgt.127 aus Kulibaki (S Gorki) ,
am 1.9.43= 10 Offiziere Ersatz ! Die Kompanien der GSR.151 und 153 wurden durch den eingetroffenen Ersatz
auf eine durchschnittliche Kompanie-Stärke von 80 Mann aufgefüllt ! 80% Turkvölker , 20% Russen !"

.....filled to an average of 80 company-man.....

This source calls Replacements for 52.Guards Rifle Division 20.08.43 = 2200 Man!

Together with the replacement of 600 men 27.08.43 (for GSR.155) , this would represent together more than
2,800 man replacement in August 1943 (when the statements of prisoners to vote) !


"Ic Meldung 10.09.43 3.Pz.Korps: 1 Unterleutnant und 3 Gefangene Rotaarmisten des GSR 153:
Regiment liegt seit 4 Tagen nur in Verteidigungsstellung bei Höhe 161,0 ! Nur Verteidigungsauftrag.
Am 06.09. = 80 Mann (Offiziere und Mannschaften) Ersatz beim Regiment eingetroffen ! Die Mannschatfen
stammen vom Reserve.Ersatz.Regiment 127 in Kolebakij ( Gebiet Gorki) ! Gefechtsstärke
III.Batallion /GSR.153 = 100 Mann , Regiment ist infolge der ungenügenden Ersatzführung als nicht voll
kampfkräftig anzusehen !"

III./Batallion / GSR.153 only 100 Mann strength ( Gefechtsstärke)
Had a very low strength when the 2800 men were correct replacement

"Ic Meldung 04.10.43, 3 PanzerKorps , Ersatzführung September 43:
52.GSD , Anfang September 300 Mann ( von ESR.127 bei Gorki) und am 02.09.= 30 Mann "

Accordingly, at least 300 +30 = 330 man Replacements in September 1943 for 52.GSD !

After 10.09.43 no further other Single-message abaout 52.GSD

By replacements at the beginn of August 43 (filling 62% of full strength), the division was probably again
a strength of 6500-7000 man!
Strength in August or in mid-Septemer Russian sources would, as previously mentioned interesting

Credibility of the prisoners' statements could be compared on original documents (if the original Russian documents include really all losses)

Original figures for losses for 51.GSD, 67.GSD,71.GSD ,90.GSD in 08/43 would also be interesting
But I think thats one thing for a new topic!
Attached again for original replacement before August 3.Pz.k

[Panzeralex]

Hallo, all
Charly, I can provide some data about losses and strength Guard Rifle Divisions 6 Guard Army from documents of Voronezh Front.
1. losses during 5-15 July (I haven't info for August)
52 G.S.D.: 724 KIA, 2117 WIA, 1053 MIA, from another reasons else 1 man = 3895
51 G.S.D.: 407 KIA, 1059 WIA, 1036 MIA, from another reasons else 100 men = 2602
67 G.S.D.: 568 KIA, 2098 WIA, 1534 MIA = 4200
71 G.S.D.: 923 KIA, 1954 WIA, 631 MIA = 3508
90 G.S.D: 601 KIA, 1173 WIA, 2184 MIA = 3958
2. losses during 16-31 July
52 G.S.D.: 15 KIA, 125 WIA, 0 MIA = 140
51 G.S.D.: 29 KIA, 154 WIA. O MIA = 183
67 G.S.D.: 169 KIA, 1991 WIA, 0 MIA = 2160
71 G.S.D.: 139 KIA, 561 WIA, 31 MIA = 731
90 G.S.D.: 74 KIA, 398 WIA, 53 MIA = 525

On the whole, losses for period 5-31 July 1943
52 G.S.D.: 739 KIA, 2242 WIA, 1053 MIA, from another reasons else 1 man = 4035
51 G.S.D.: 436 KIA, 1213 WIA, 1036 MIA, from another reasons else 100 men = 2785
67 G.S.D.: 737 KIA, 4089 WIA, 1534 MIA = 6360
71 G.S.D.: 1062 KIA, 2515 WIA, 662 MIA = 4239
90 G.S.D.: 675 KIA, 1571 WIA, 2237 MIA = 4483

Information on the strength of divisions during July-August 1943, I'll post later.

Best regards,
Panzeralex

[Art]

Why so many wounded in the 67 division? Isn't there any mistake here?

[charly]

Start Strength 5.7.43 = ca. 8900 men

52.GSD : In July 1943 = ca. 4100 loses
Start Strength early August 1943 ca. 6500 - 7000 men ( auf 60- 62% von SOLLSTÄRKE aufgefüllt)

52.GSD : in August 1943 = ca. 367 Killed + ( 3 x 367 Wounded ) + 654 missing = 2122 Losses
or ca. 367 Killed + ( 4 x 367 Wounded ) + 654 missing = 2489 Losses

Most losses in August 43 in Dekade II and III , fighting against 3.Panzerkorps

In August 1943 Replacements = from 1330 men ( min.) to 2800 men (max.)

52.GSD : in September 1943 = 379 dead + (3 x 379) + 77 wounded, missing = 1593 losses
or ca = 379 dead + (4 x 379) + 77 wounded, missing = 1972 losses

In September 1943 Replacements = 330 men ( until 10.09.43)

Most losses for September in the first 2 Dekades of September 1943

Detachment of 52.GSD probably mid-September

From August -September 43 estimation between ca. 3700 Losses(min.) - 4450 Losses(max.) if the orginal russian sources are nearly correct

Estimated Strength mid September 1943 between ca. 3400 men to 3900 men(min) and 4850 to 5350 men (max.)

Losses from July to September 1943 ( Woronesh-Front) = between ca. 7800 and 8550 men (sum)

Represents almost the entire starting strength ,although the division was probably only slightly more
than half the time in the fight ! ( Recreation, Replacement , Marching ,and so one) !

52.GSD in the 3 months in all major battles involved
( like 51.GSD,67.GSD,71.GSD,90.GSD from 6.Gd.Army ,
i will start a new topic in the next days)

Hope you supported me

Thanks Charly

[Art]

For information, as of 20 September 1943 divisions on the 6 Guards Army had:
51 GRD - 4064 men
52 GRD - 4977
67 GRD - 4103
71 GRD - 5451
90 GRD - 4651