Rifle Division 04/550

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Art
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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#31

Post by Art » 24 Jan 2013, 21:50

John Hilly wrote: Art. Do you know if this platoon had any special colours or badges or were they wearing normal infantry uniforms?
The word "nothing" describes accurately what I know about uniforms etc.

Let's attempt to decipher smaller units organizations in more details. The following is an approximate TO&E of artillery batteries based mostly on the earlier TO&E (04/202) and tables from "Red Army handbook". Comments are welcome
Organization of the 76-mm cannon battery

Total: 6 officers + 15 NCOs + 48 privates = 69 men, 54 horses, 4 76-mm field cannons with limbers, 8 ammunition wagons, 1 cart

Battery HQ: 3 officers + 2 NCOs = 5 men, 2 horses
- battery commander (off), riding horse
- political deputy (off), riding horse
- deputy battery commander (off)
- battery sergeant-major (nco)
- medical instructor (nco)

HQ platoon: 1+4+12=17 men, 6 horses, 1 cart
- platoon commander (off), riding horse
- scout section: 0+1+4=5, 5 horses
- - section commander (nco), riding horse
- - 2 senior scouts-observers (pvts), 2 riding horses
- - 2 scouts-observers (pvts), 2 riding horses
- Signal section: 0+3+8=11, 1 horse, 1 cart
- - section commander (nco)
- - 2 senior telephone operators (pvts)
- - 4 telephone operators (pvts)
- - 2 senior radio operators (ncos)
- - 2 radio operators, one is also a cart driver (pvts)
- - telephone cart with one artillery horse
- - 2 RB radio-sets

2 firing platoons: 1+4(5)+18=23(24), 23 horses, 2 76-mm field cannons, 4 wagons
- platoon commander (off), riding horse
- traction section commander (nco) – in one platoon only
- 2 cannon sections: 0+2+9=11, 11 horses, 1 76-mm cannon, 2 wagons
- - section commander (nco), riding horse
- - gunlayer (nco)
- - 4 gun numbers (pvts)
- - 3 riders (pvts)
- - 2 wagon drivers (pvts)
- - 1 76-mm gun mod.1942 (ZIS-3) with a limber and 6 artillery horses
- - 2 ammunition wagons, each with 2 artillery horses
Organization of the 122-mm howitzer battery
Total: 6 officers + 19 NCOs + 45 privates = 70 men, 30 horses, 4 122-mm howitzers, 5 tractors, 8 wagons, 1 cart

Battery HQ: same as for the cannon battery

HQ platoon: same as for the cannon battery

2 firing platoons: 1+7(6)+16(17)=24, 11 horses, 2 122-mm howitzers with limbers, 4 wagons
- platoon commander (off), riding horse
- traction section commander (nco) – in one platoon only
- 1 tractor driver (pvt) – in one platoon only
- 1 spare tractor (STZ-5), in one platoon only
- 2 howitzer sections: 0+3+8=11, 5 horses, 1 122-mm howitzer with a limber, 1 tractor, 2 wagons
- - section commander (nco), riding horse
- - gunlayer (nco)
- - 5 gun numbers (pvts)
- - 1 tractor mechanic (nco)
- - 1 tractor driver (pvt)
- - 2 wagon drivers (pvts)
- - 1 122-mm howitzer mod.1938 (M-30) with a limber
- - 1 tractor (STZ-5)
- - 2 ammunition wagons, each with 2 artillery horses

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#32

Post by Gary Kennedy » 25 Jan 2013, 02:36

Interesting link to the other thread, thanks. I can almost reconcile the revised figures for the Dec42 Div, and the reduced strength alternative. The 60-man Rifle Coy doesn't work out though, assuming I'm reading it right;

Coy Cmdr
Coy 2-in-C

Coy HQ; 7 men
MG Squad; 6 men

Pl; 19 men
Pl; 19 men

I make that 53, not 60. Any ideas where the other 7 were? I understood the 50-mm mortars were discarded on the reduced strength scales and can't think of any other Coy elements.

Gary


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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#33

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 25 Jan 2013, 09:51

John Hilly wrote:
Art wrote:"NKVD rifle platoon" is fully called "Rifle platoon of the NKVD special department". "NKVD" relates to "department" not "platoon" which is essential since the platoon belonged to the Red Army.
Art. Do you know if this platoon had any special colours or badges or were they wearing normal infantry uniforms?

Thanks in advance!
Juha-Pekka
My understanding is that these are Red Army troops and not forces of the NKVD so they would wear uniforms of the Red Army and these would be the standard ones for the infantry with no special insignia. However they were likely to be reliable men and hence Party members. The Officers on the other hand are members of the NKVD and wear uniforms of the NKVD Military Branch ie hat with blue top, blue shoulder boards, dark blue breeches
Image

You can buy said uniform here:
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/Reproduc ... forms.html
and this is an excellent source for uniforms including the camouflage ones for the Airborne troops.

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#34

Post by John Hilly » 25 Jan 2013, 13:51

Thank you Fritz! :milsmile:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#35

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 25 Jan 2013, 14:05

Here is the 04/550 RD Reduced shatct (OK I cannot spell it in English)
Soviet Rifle Divisions Tables of Organisation 04-550 Reduced.pdf
04/550 Reduced
(87.11 KiB) Downloaded 264 times
On the bottom of this are the extra units added to some 04/550 Rifle Divisions, ie the 76mm AT gun Battalion and the HMG AA Company.

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#36

Post by Art » 25 Jan 2013, 20:50

Gary Kennedy wrote: I make that 53, not 60. Any ideas where the other 7 were?
2 50-mm mortars with 7 men.
See also the pdf attached.
Attachments
Division 5000.pdf
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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#37

Post by Art » 25 Jan 2013, 20:56

Continuing with smaller units:
Organization of artillery battalion units:

Battalion command: 6+0+0=6, 2 riding horses
- battalion commander (off), riding horse
- deputy political commander (off), riding horse
- deputy commander (off)
- artillery technician (off)
- doctor (off)
- veterinary doctor (off)

Battalion staff: 3+0+0=3, 3 riding horses
- chief of staff (off), riding horse
- Reconnaissance officer (off), riding horse
- Signals officer (off), riding horse

Scout section: 0+1+3=4, 4 horses
- Section commander (nco), riding horse
- 3 scouts (pvts), 3 riding horses

Survey platoon: 1+3+8=12, 3 horses, 2 carts
- platoon commander (off), riding horse
- 3 sections: 0+1+2=3
- - section commander (nco)
- - 2 topographers (pvts)
- 2 cart drivers
- 2 carts for instruments, each with 1 artillery horse

Signal platoon: 0(1)+5+18=23(24), 3 horses, 3 carts
(- Platoon commander (off), riding horse – also the battalion chief of signals)
- 2 telephone sections: 0+1+6=7, 1 horse, 1 cart
- - section commander (nco)
- - 2 senior telephone operators (pvts)
- - 4 telephone operators (pvts) – one is also a cart driver
- - telephone cart with 1 artillery horse
- radio section: 0+2+2=4
- - section commander (nco)
- - senior radio operator (nco)
- - 2 radio operators (pvts)
- - 2 RB radio-sets
- - infantry liaison section: 0+1+4=5, 1 horse, 1 cart
- - section commander (nco)
- - 2 senior telephone operators (pvts)
- - 2 telephone operators (pvts), one is also a cart river
- - telephone cart with one artillery horse

Ammunition platoon: 1+3+24=28, 49 horses, 24 wagons
- platoon commander (off), riding horse
- 3 sections: 0+1+8=9, 16 horses, 8 wagons
- - section commander (nco)
- - senior wagon driver (pvt)
- - 7 wagon drivers (pvts)
- - 8 ammunition wagons, each with 2 artillery horses

Supply section: 0+4+7=11, 8 horses, 1 cart, 3 field kitchens
- Sergeant-major (nco)
- veterinary doctor (nco)
- farrier (pvt)
- quartermaster sergeant (nco)
- senior cook (nco)
- 2 cooks (pvts)
- 4 wagon drivers (pvts)
- 1 wagon for forage and veterinary materials with 2 train horses
- 3 field kitchens, each with 2 train horses
Organization of reduced-strength artillery battalion units:

Battalion command (as above)

Battalion staff (as above)

Scout section (as above)

Survey platoon: 1+2+6=9, 3 horses, 2 carts
less 1 topo section (0+1+2)

Signal platoon: 0(1)+5+15=20(21), 3 horses, 2 carts
less 1 senior telephone operators (pvt), 2 telephone operators (pvts), 1 telephone cart with 1 artillery horse

Ammunition platoon: 1+2+20, 41 horses, 20 wagons
- platoon commander (off), riding horse
- 2 sections: 0+1+10=11, 20 horses, 10 wagons
- - section commander (nco)
- - senior wagon driver (pvt)
- - 9 wagon drivers (pvts)
- - 10 ammunition wagons, each with 2 artillery horses

Supply section: 0+4+5=9, 5 horses, 1 wagon, 2 field kitchens
- sergeant-major (nco)
- veterinary doctor (nco)
- farrier (pvt)
- quartermaster sergeant (nco)
- senior cook (nco)
- 1 cook (pvt)
- 3 wagon drivers (pvts)
- 1 cart for forage and veterinary materials with 1 train horse
- 2 field kitchens, each with 2 train horses

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#38

Post by Gary Kennedy » 27 Jan 2013, 12:37

Art wrote:
Gary Kennedy wrote: I make that 53, not 60. Any ideas where the other 7 were?
2 50-mm mortars with 7 men.
See also the pdf attached.
So they retained the 50-mm mortars? I thought they were deleted with the reduced strength adaptions. Thanks,

Gary

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Re: Rifle Division (Rifle Regt changes)

#39

Post by Gary Kennedy » 27 Jan 2013, 13:03

I've been looking at the various totals given in the posts on this thread and also in the Red Army Handbook.

If I'm reading them correctly, the Dec 42 Inf Regt had an authorised strength of 2474. The Handbook in its text makes mention of a 2443 strength. In one of the posts from Art he provied a revised breakdown for the Rifle Div as a whole. That included a strength for the Inf Regt of 176 officers, 685 NCOs and 1582 men; total 2443 personnel, plus 339 horses.

The detailed breakdown for the Dec 42 Inf Regt in the Red Army Handbook differs from this in some respects. A provisional tally reads as 183 officers, 578 NCOs and 1699 men, total 2457. There's a big discrepancy between the NCO/Private ranks split, and a few more officers.

My guess is the summary for 04/551 in the Handbook under counts the number of NCOs in the support weapons area. There then appears to have been a review of the Dec 42 Regt, resulting in the removal of one atk Rifle Pl from the Regtl Coy which largely accounts for the reduction of men, along with some rejigging of strengths in the Rifle Bn. I've been trying to figure out the effect on the MG and Mortar Coys of the latter, but without having an idea of the rank split for the Rifle Bn it's pretty much all supposition.

Is there a more detailed summary of the late 42 to early 43 Rifle Regt, showing the breakdown of officers/NCOs/men by Company level at least? Might give me something more to work with.

Thanks for the posts so far, I think the lanugage barrier prevents further digging on my part, but it's been fun to reacquaint myself with the very different approach of the Red Army to such matters :)

Gary

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#40

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 06 Feb 2013, 18:28

Paul_Atreides wrote:Ordinary rifle division

Image

Guards rifle division

Image
Paul these are obviously from a book or publication. Which one is it?

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#41

Post by Jeff Leach » 17 Feb 2013, 12:27

I have been translating NKO order 00253 of 8 December 1942 and it states:

1. Начальнику Главупраформа товарищу Щаденко совместно с военным советом воздушно-десантных войск вместо формируемых восьми воздушно-десантных корпусов и пяти маневренных воздушно-десантных бригад сформировать десять воздушно-десантных гвардейских дивизий по новому штату* гвардейских стрелковых дивизий, численностью 10670 человек каждая.

1. Chief of the Main Formation Directorate comrade Ŝadenko and the Military Soviet of the VDV to form ten Guards Airborne Divisions after the new Guards Rifle Division TOE’s from the existing eight Airborne Corps and five Airlanding Brigades with a total of 10670 men each.

*The document refers to new TOEs (штату) but so far I have only found references to 04/500 (of 10 December 1942), which the TOE of a Guards Rifle Division Headquarters. The discussion above and elsewhere on the net show the differences between the December 1942 Rifle Division and Guards Rifle Division (a nice summation of the differences) but can anyone post a copy of the document? It should contain a list of TOEs for the subordinate units or at least a list of addmenments to existing TOEs. If anyone has a copy of any divisonal TOE could they post a copy of it. It would be interesting to see how the documents are structured.

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#42

Post by Art » 17 Feb 2013, 12:37

leachjeff wrote: If anyone has a copy of any divisonal TOE could they post a copy of it.
From December 1942 only or any other?

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#43

Post by Jeff Leach » 17 Feb 2013, 13:04

Any 'divisional' TOE from the GPW would be fine. I would like to know how the divisional level documents are structured.

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#44

Post by Art » 17 Feb 2013, 13:27

Try f.217 d.226 online. There is a scanned shtat of the rifle regiment 04/601 on the page 151:
Image
Also see a list of tables for the rifle division o4/200 from March 1942 there:
http://rkka.ru/iorg.htm

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Re: Rifle Division 04/550

#45

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 17 Feb 2013, 14:41

Try f.217 d.226 online.
What is this, could you give a proper liink to it please?

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