Rifle Division 04/550

[Jeff Leach]

It is an archival reference at TsAMO. I assume he is referring to the Ministry of Defense Online Database and the reference is incomplete f.217 d.226 should be (f.217 op.? d.226). Unfortunately the above database has been changed (at least I don't remember it like this) and material is now listed as фонд.xxx опись.xxx Едининца хранения (storage unit). Art explained to me once how to use the site but I couldn't find the thread. If I do I'll post it.

[Art]

Paste the numbers in the search window as shown on the picture and you will find it (it's the last doc int he folder):

[Eugen Pinak]

Art - thank you very much for the interesting info!

Der Alte Fritz - here is the shtat Art mentioned: http://www57.zippyshare.com/v/49060313/file.html

Unfortunately, there is only rifle regiment shtat, other units are missing.

[Der Alte Fritz]

No thank you very much it is just interesting to see these old documents

[Gary Kennedy]

I'll add my thanks too, even though I can't read it I'd always wondered what a shtat document actually looked like. I take it the second part is akin to an equipment table.

I also revisited the RKKA.ru link that DAF provided in the separate thread I asked for assistance in, and was able to find almost all the details for the Mar 1942 Inf Regt. For some reason google translate gave up about when it got to the Regtl Transport Coy, but the Bn info helped put on old query from the Red Army Hdbk to bed.

Now if there was something like that the Motor/Mech Inf Bns I'd be in hog heaven!

Thanks,

Gary

[Eugen Pinak]

Der Alte Fritz
BTW, can you read Russian?

Gary Kennedy

I take it the second part is akin to an equipment table.

That shtat consists of:
1. Summary,
2. TO&E itself (also, pay is included here),
3. Detailed recapitulation of weaponry, equipment (including, for example, regimental library of exactly 75 books) and even food,
4. Recapitulation of personnel according to their specialities.

I also revisited the RKKA.ru link that DAF provided in the separate thread I asked for assistance in, and was able to find almost all the details for the Mar 1942 Inf Regt.

Actually, they posted shtats for almost all units of March 1942 Rifle Division.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Eugen: Can I read a Russian - a bit, slowly and laboriously and I get confused by the military terminology. But something like a shtat document is not too bad.

Leachjeff: Was looking for the post on using the website and was surprised by how little AHF threads there are that relate to it. But I did find this thread which may be the one you are talking about and does contain search material references. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&start=15

Seeing the old shtat brought back memories as I used to work for a publishing house which dealt with books about the Soviet Union. I remember sitting down with one author who was a KGB Officer, a famous British Intelligence author and their MI6 minder. Another day I sat down opposite an old man (the kind you see every day in the street) but this man had a SS Concentration Camp number tattooed on his forearm - he had been at Auschwitz. There was one US author who we joked had half the Soviet archives stashed under his bed at home!

[Der Alte Fritz]

Another help totpic:

"Re: Help with a translation concerning 236 Rifle Division
by Art on 25 Feb 2011 10:27

leachjeff wrote:
I though the folder (or file) in a TsAMO reference was as an example f.228 in TsAMO f.228, op.701, d.15, ll.1-2. Ops that was wrong: by folder I mean f.228, op.701, d.15 in the above reference.

d. means "дело" or folder in bureaucratic language. All documents in the TsAMO archive are grouped by the units of origin. Documents originating from the same unit (front, district, army, division etc down to regiment or separate unit) form a "fund" (фонд or ф.) which have a numerical designation. The numbers from the series ** correspond to central directorates and departments of the NKO and General Staff (for example f.38 is the Main Armored-Tank Directorate), 1** - to military districts, 2** to fronts, 3** and 4** to armies etc. Inside funds folders are grouped by several lists (опись or оп.). In case of armies and fronts these lists correspond to departments of Staff/HQ. So there is a list of folders of the operations department (war diaries, after-action reports, operative directives and orders, operative reports, reports on war experience etc), a list of the staffing department (reports on personnel and equipment strength, personnel and horses losses, replacements, documents on organization and TO&Es), intelligence department, political, artillery, tank etc. Folders are numerated inside each list, the total number could be from 1 to several thousands.
So f.228. op.701, d.15 means South Front, operations department, folder No.15. In addition all pages in folders were numerated for security reasons, you can see the number of page in the upper right corner. ll. 1-2 means pages 1-2 (листы 1-2). The full archival reference includes the number of fund, list, folder and pages. I hope that gives a clear enough idea of this archival designations. The documents that were digitized are from operations departments of the fronts' staffs only. That means that there are pretty many other files, which could be accessed in the archive itself.

Anyway, podviganroda.ru has improved the search engine somewhat. You can use advanced search to find documents from a certain folder by typing the fund and folder numbers, let's say 228 and 15. There is also a possibility to search for documents from a certain date or having a certain number, which is useful enough. Now only the clumsy flash engine prevents them from being a really workable site"

[Eugen Pinak]

Can I read a Russian - a bit, slowly and laboriously and I get confused by the military terminology.

Well - it's way better, than my Japanese

So if you can read Russian, you will find some shtats on that web-site simply by inserting штат or штаты into the field "name of the document". Unfortunately, their search engine is very clumsy, and browsing is very time-consuming

[Der Alte Fritz]

Yes it is very frustrating!
There is this partial list of documents here: http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Fondy ... _main.html
which can help a little.

[Eugen Pinak]

Yes - I know that site. Unfortunately, names of thу files could be very misleading.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Art
Still having trouble with http://www.podvignaroda.ru/ search boxes:

Thought I would try an easy one. I am looking to see if I can find this document:
Приказ НКО СССР № 00220 от 22 октября 1942 г.
«О сформировании механизированных корпусов»

and it has the reference in English and then Russian

TsAMO. f. 4, Op. 11, 68, l. 343 - 344. The original.
ЦАМО. ф. 4, оп. 11, д. 68, л. 343 - 344. Подлинник.

So which numbers do I put into which boxes? I would think that:
Box 1: 4
Box 2: 11
Box 3: 68
would work but in fact nothing comes up

[Art]

Not surprising. First of all, there virtually no documents from the 1942 in the database, second - they are uploading documents from the front's funds and your reference leads to the people's commissariat for defense. But purely theoretically - yes, you should search that way.

[Gary Kennedy]

I've spent a while now trying to work out the details for the various units and subunits of the later war Rifle Regts (Jul and Dec 1942) based on the figures from the Apr 1941 reduced strength Regt (linked to earlier) and the version of the Mar 1942 Regt available on RKKA.ru.

It ain't easy, but in the absence of the actual documents it's all I've got to work with. To preserve some measure of sanity does anyone have any figures for the Jul and Dec 1942 Regts in terms of the split of officers/political officers/NCOs/Privates? 2517 and 2474 are the overall figures for both Regt organisations, and it's possible to see how they were broken down into subunits from this thread and the Red Army Hdbk, but I could really do with some form of rank summary to see if I'm close.

The figures Art provided for a Regt of 2443 and the unit breakdown present a challenge; it's obviously a trimmed down version of the Dec 1942 model, and while that has such a rank summary trying to figure out who went were is proving problematic.

Any help appreciated.

Gary

[Art]

It ain't easy, but in the absence of the actual documents it's all I've got to work with. To preserve some measure of sanity does anyone have any figures for the Jul and Dec 1942 Regts in terms of the split of officers/political officers/NCOs/Privates?

July TO&E - I don't remember seeing it anywhere, breakdown of personnel in 04/551 from Dec.42 is available in the "Red Army handbook", tables were posted earlier:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1763650

The figures Art provided for a Regt of 2443 and the unit breakdown present a challenge; it's obviously a trimmed down version of the Dec 1942 model, and while that has such a rank summary trying to figure out who went were is proving problematic.

As I said earlier different documents can quote different authorized strength for the same division on the same date. Don't take it as the Holy Gospel.

Finishing organization of the artillery regiment of the ordinary rifle division from December 1942 (04/552), here is an approximate organization of HQ and trains elements. Keep in mind that in some points it's based on guesses:

Regiment command: 4 officers, 3 riding horses
- Regiment commander (off), riding horse
- Political deputy (off), riding horse
- Deputy commander (off)
- Adjutant (off), riding horse

Regiment staff: 7 officers + 1 NCO, 2 riding horses
- chief of staff (off), riding horse
- 2 chief of staff’s aides (off), 2 riding horses
- chief of signals (off)
- radio officer (off)
- chief of office-work (off)
- senior clerk (nco)

Party&political section: 2 officers
- Party secretary (off)
- Comsomol secretary (off)

Supply service: 7 officers +1 nco, 1 riding horse
- chief of supply aka regimental commander’s aide (off), riding horse
- chief of artillery supply (off)
- chief of technical supply (off)
- chief of food&forage supply (off)
- chief of intendancy supply (off)
- chief of office-work (off)
- clerk (nco)

Chiefs of services: 2 officers
- senior regimental doctor (off)
- senior regimental veterinary doctor (off)

Total in regimental HQ: 22 officers (incl. 3 political officers and 4 warrant officers) + 2 NCOs, 6 horses

Regimental HQ battery: 5 officers + 10 NCOs + 39 privates = 54, 19 horses, 6 1-horse carts (2 for telephones, 2 for topographic instruments, 2 for the staff), 1 wagon for radio, 1 field kitchen
Organization, approximately:
- Scout section
- Signal platoon
- Survey platoon
- Supply and administrative section

Regimental medical point: 2 officers + 1 nco + 4 privates = 7, 3 horses, 1 wagon, 1 cart
- junior doctor (off)
- doctor’s assistant (off)
- medical instructor (nco)
- 2 medics (pvt)
- senior driver (pvt)
- driver (pvt)
- drugstore cart with 1 train horse
- sanitary wagon with 2 train horses

Veterinary hospital: 2 officers + 2 privates = 4, 2 horses, 1 wagon
- veterinary doctor (off)
- doctor’s assistant (off)
- veterinary medic (pvt)
- wagon driver (pvt)
- 1 wagon for veterinary materiel with 2 train horses

Ordnance workshop: 2+4+2=8, 4 horses, 2 wagons
- chief of workshop (off)
- radio master (off)
- senior guns master (nco)
- senior weapons master (nco)
- telephone master (nco)
- chemical master (nco)
- 2 wagon drivers (pvt)
- charging unit
- 2 wagons, each with 2 train horses

Clothing and train workshop: 1 NCO + 2 privates = 3
- chief of workshop (nco)
- shoemaker (pvt)
- saddler (pvt)

Mobile mechanical workshop: 2 NCOs + 2 privates = 4, 1 repair truck
- chief of workshop (nco)
- electrician (nco)
- fitter (pvt)
- truck driver (pvt)
- 1 repair truck (GAZ-AA) with instruments

Transport platoon: 1+3+16=20, 18 horses, 6 wagons, 4 carts, 1 field kitchen, 4 trucks
- platoon commander (off)
- 2 transport sections: 0+1+6=7, 8 horses, 3 wagons, 2 carts, 2 trucks
- - section commander (nco)
- - 4 wagon drivers (pvt)
- - 2 truck drivers (pvt)
- - 3 wagons, each with 2 train horses
- - 2 carts, each with 1 train horse
- - 2 trucks
- 3rd (supply) section: 0+1+4=5, 2 horses, 1 field kitchen
- quartermaster sergeant (nco)
- farrier (pvt)
- wheelwright (pvt)
- cook (pvt)
- driver (pvt)
- field kitchen with 2 horses

Total in regimental trains elements: 7+11+28=46, 27 horses, 10 wagons, 5 carts, 1 field kitchen, 5 trucks

Hope to continue with the rifle regiment.