Soviet Naval Battles

[lupodimare89]

Sorry for the HUGE delay: i had some need to focus on study:


Details found about the following month:
July 1942 in Artic.


4 July
Details about operations vs PQ-17
Ships on 4 July received orders to temporary return due believed presence of enemy ships
Situation still unclear, operation not canceled.

11.41 of 5 July the fleet has the OK for operation, no more fear of carriers and battleships of enemy
But got order to retreat at first sign of danger.

In the evening radio monitoring intercepted 2 reports from a "British vessel", probably submarine,
of 2 BB and 8 DD at 17.00 at 71 and 25 N and 23 and 40 E. course 45.
Same sub (or possibly another one?) Sighted 11 vessels at 18.16 71 and 31 N and 27 and 10 E. course 65
Naval staff learned it at 20.35 and 21.03
Is reported serious enemy interfere with radio communication
OPERATION BROKE OFF.
In the end Germans claim that Allied warships fleet retreated because of German naval force.

When K-21 sent its message? Who could have sent the two ones reported by Germans?



5 July 1942
War Diary: U-334 strafed and bombed by plane at 1830 suffering damage and becoming incapable of diving. Attack reported of being carried by a Ju-88, "but maybe it was a russian plane."

If i'm right we've seen that there should have not been a soviet aircraft, right?


7 July
U-657 fired 4 torpedoes against a “large Russian submarine” in AC5725
Target missed.

14 July
U-457 unsuccessfully attempt to attack a Russian submarine in AC4978

23 July
Say about sub. attack off vardo vs convoy, no effect.



Speaking about Soviet success with submarine, the only one known is the sinking of UJ-1110 by mines of submarine K-21 on 9 July.
Germans give confirmations, stating there were at least 50 MIA, and there was need to lay more anti-submarine mines to prevent further similar losses.

[igorr]

Sorry for the HUGE delay: i had some need to focus on study:

No problem!

When K-21 sent its message? Who could have sent the two ones reported by Germans?

Germans not monitored soviet traffic in this operation. They intercepted message from british shore station called "Cleethorpes".

War Diary: U-334 strafed and bombed by plane at 1830 suffering damage and becoming incapable of diving. Attack reported of being carried by a Ju-88, "but maybe it was a russian plane."
If i'm right we've seen that there should have not been a soviet aircraft, right?

All you need to know is place of attack - AC2861. Too far from soviet bases. It was Ju.88.

7 July
U-657 fired 4 torpedoes against a “large Russian submarine” in AC5725
Target missed.

It was SCSH-403.

14 July
U-457 unsuccessfully attempt to attack a Russian submarine in AC4978

SCSH-422.

23 July
Say about sub. attack off vardo vs convoy, no effect.

Hmmm Can't see any attacks this day.

Speaking about Soviet success with submarine, the only one known is the sinking of UJ-1110 by mines of submarine K-21 on 9 July.
Germans give confirmations, stating there were at least 50 MIA, and there was need to lay more anti-submarine mines to prevent further similar losses.

Correct but MIA given is to much. In reality "only" 45.

[lupodimare89]

Correct but MIA given is to much. In reality "only" 45.

Also considering that these diaries often report an early evaluation and sometimes doesn't make further corrections...


August 1942


Few things, some details about Operation Wunderland


It's clear that Germans were awere of the soviet convoy from the Far East.
On 2 August it say that Japanese warned them about an en route convoy departed on 26 July.


9August
On afternoon of 8 August a submarine attacked convoy with 2 torpedoes.
(no location given)
Sinking of patrol boat TAIFUN at Lerwik was due collision with norwegian steamer.
(if i'm right a ship with such name was listed among old soviet claims).


10 august
Operation wonderland.
Convoy from Petropavlovsk expected in Kara Sea for middle august.
Another soviet submarine attack. 3 torpedoes. Deptch charges launched. Off Kiberg.
Found a rubber boat on 15august believed to have been of the submarine.


The convoy en route from Petropavlovsk formed of 23 ships (among them 4 icebreakers)
There was a list of their names provided by Japanese.
New orders on 21 August: main targets are conovys expected in Kara Sea.
Operations Wunderland extended in hope to intercept convoy.


25aug
Afternoon of 24 august
South of Kiberg, submarine launched 2 torpedoes against eastbound convoy.
Submarine probably destroyed on following chase on 25 august


Few details of the following actions of Admiral Scheer :

Scheer ordered to return as soon as news of bombing of Dikson, believed that now enemy is alerted.
A first communication from Scheer only say that it was sunk the Alexander Sibiryakov

Later another communication give these details:

Raided Dikson during night of 25 August
Severaly damaged icebreaker TAIMYR and a 5,000 GRT Tanker during gun battle
The latter probably exploded later.
Main radio station, lighthouse and signal station destroyed.
Observed severe damage and fires in harbor installations and town.
A coastal battery of 130mm took part in action.

I'm wrong or the actual bombing occurred a bit later?
(and with different soviet units involved of corse)

At first the raid is considered clearly a success.
Proposed to use ADMIRAL HIPPER for a repetition of operation.

[igorr]

9August
On afternoon of 8 August a submarine attacked convoy with 2 torpedoes.
(no location given)

Actually, SHCH-403 fired 4 torpedoes.

10 august
...
Another soviet submarine attack. 3 torpedoes. Deptch charges launched. Off Kiberg.

Not correct. New SHCH-403 attack near Kiberg was on 11.08 - http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de ... _value=225

New orders on 21 August: main targets are conovys expected in Kara Sea.
Operations Wunderland extended in hope to intercept convoy.

This order was given from very beginning of operation.

Afternoon of 24 august
South of Kiberg, submarine launched 2 torpedoes against eastbound convoy.

http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de ... _value=231

Few details of the following actions of Admiral Scheer :
Scheer ordered to return as soon as news of bombing of Dikson, believed that now enemy is alerted.
A first communication from Scheer only say that it was sunk the Alexander Sibiryakov

No. AS received 2 orders - one about returning nexy day and 2nd about new strike on Kara sea if ship not seen by enemy at sea. But AS reported that she has success with shore shelling and must return for new aircraft, fuel etc. Only after that she has permission for return.

Later another communication give these details:
Raided Dikson during night of 25 August

I'm wrong or the actual bombing occurred a bit later?

Yes. It was night 25/26.

[lupodimare89]

Thanks again, epecially on matters of orders and plans, the ktb i'm checking it's clearly poor on details and there is no wonder that reports shortened things or with mistakes.

Yes. It was night 25/26.

Thanks for this, i've for some weird reason wrote on a page that it was 27, but i guess it was a numerical mistake.


Plus thanks for linking this: http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/pro ... rsicht.php
I had not noticed this interesting section.

If you don't mind i could need a little help with translation. I've started from some time checking about the russian civil war naval warfere and i've found a number of interesting sites-articles with a good deal of cross-checking of sources.

One i found recently was this: http://militera.lib.ru/h/shirokorad_ab3/index.html
And it's basically the only one i found on the less known areas of the Civil War. It provides lots of things even if i noticed that:
1) some events are a bit lacking details or both sides of action (i THINK that the author is slightly sided with the White, and make a bit sided commentary).
2) some others are not much explored (but for some there are alternative sources).

Checking the events in Caspian sea i found a line that i've been a bit unable to understand-translate properly:

Но малые суда действительно ходили по этому маршруту. Так, пароходы «Эдисон» (1802 брт) и «Самед Ага» (1474 брт) с экипажами прибыли с первым эшелоном деникинцев и перебросили из Петровска в Гурьев военные грузы, в том числе броневики. Старшим командиром в рейс пошел уже упоминавшийся капитан 2-го ранга Пышнов. На обратном пути, идя вне видимости берегов и обнаружив на горизонте дымы, он не изменил курса, чем ввел в заблуждение красные миноносцы, посчитавшие в свою очередь, что видят английские военные суда. Это стало известно белым от захваченных впоследствии в плен красных матросов.

Exactly i've not understood what happened to these two ships: they saw British and exchanged them for Soviets? Or the opposite and they got captured? They're no more mentioned in the text..

[igorr]

This two ships goes in open sea with no shore visible. When they see some smokes, they're not change their course. So, red ships (which made this smokes) had taken two steamships for british and let them passed by.
Btw Shirokorad is very much with White and hate Reds.

[lupodimare89]

Thanks ^^
Yes, i noticed... even if i've seen that he doesn't hide the successes made by soviets, just it's common that he doesn't give plenty details, and in some other events he spent much time giving commentary from white without neither giving the names of soviet boats involved.
And speaking in general it seems that when soviet lost it was because they were a "bunch of incompetent cowards", when white lost it was ever for some reason above their possibilities...
But still he gives names and (sometimes) dates... the rest can be read with a mix of good-and-bad on both sides...



BTW for who's unable to follow tsushima.net, there has been given data and explains for a pair of events in Black Sea that had not much explains:

On 6/7 November 1943 we have now:

R37, R204, R216 had several fights with the Eltigen-convoys and, more successfully, against scattered boats. In several confused clashes KATSh-526 was damaged, then No.36 sunk, No.55 damaged, No.65 sunk. Also tender No.76 MIA (probably sunk by raumboats). It is a most probably course of events.

And also

BKA-323 and BKA-81 (both S-40 type) against F446, F578, F316 (4th MFP - F335 - was damaged by coastal artillery and broke the mission). MFPs (all?) was slighty damaged. BKA-323 was slightly damaged also. Some sources says BKA-304 from the 2nd patrol pair also took part in the engagement (probably from the great range). Maybe one of army small pontoons was destroyed or damaged but it isn't certain, the bulk of sources says the supply stream through the Strait was unharmed.

The target lost on clash against R-boats were landing boats.
This gives some additional victories to them, but the second clash between MFP and BKA had a more balanced result.

Even more interesting the second mysterious clash of 7/8 December 1943
We had the three R-boats R 216, R 196 und R 208 that reported a clash against a single "gunboat", a direct hit on R-196 that had to be towed away.
At first it seemed that there was no candidate but then:

about 7/8.12.43: SKA-036 was in the patrol in the southern part of the Strait. According to some documents SKA-036 has an engagement with unspecified enemy so it is probably that R196 was damaged in that engagement.

[lupodimare89]

Now, to go on with the KTB of Arctic war...

(i'm no more going to add ALL the reports of submarine attacks, after the link with HM most of them can be clearly attributed to this or this other sub.)

September 1942:

Nothing to add about Wunderland apart proposal of different options for a repetition of operation.
(Scheer alone or Scheer + Hipper; Hipper alone or Hipper + Scheer or Hipper + 3 DD, 3 / 4 DD alone or 3 / 4 DD + Koeln).
Should have been named “Operation Doppleschlag”:
Scheer against Dikson and Yenisei river, Hipper to Ob River.
Planned for early September:
Later said Scheer cant start before 8 sept, later at 25 sept due engines
Hipper said to have to lay mines.
Later only Hipper.
All postponed due convoys PQ-18 and QP-14


9 september
Proposal to move Finnish submarines in Artic waters. Finnish doesn’t want.
Than german agree there could be little gains and many problems

Nohing to adds on submarine ASW: a number of German subs are reported damaged and some sunk, but all were deployed against PQ-18 and QP-14, and soviet destroyers joined only PQ-18 at 17 Sept (all attacks are reported on early days and at best at 16 Sept).


There are however some comments on the sinking of merchant Robert Bornhofen 6643 GRT, today assigned to K-1 with mine.
On 17 September it say that the probably cause was a sabotage: not a torpedo attack or mines because there should have been a minesweeper sailing forward the merchant and no mine was sighted by the minesweeper.
On 18 September the captain said it was probably a torpedo attack and not a sabotage.
No other evaluations are given, i've yet to check the next month that could report sighting of mines.

[lupodimare89]

Lack of war diaries and in general lack of new data for October, November, December 1942 and January and February 1943.

This sadly leave out a description of the engagement of the Baku and Razumnyi raid on 19 January.
And also leave out the launch of torpedoes of K-21 on 20 February, that has been described but never confirmed as possible cause of destruction of some motorboats.


I will go on with March 1943.

[igorr]

Me and M. Morozov wrote recently article about engagment of 19.01.43. Big enough. There were no hits in any ship.
There is no evidence of real losses of any motorbotes 20.2.43 in german documents.

[lupodimare89]

Ok, btw i keep a bit slowly now due study, but once it will be finished this check(and a one for Baltic sea, even if less detailed and focusing mainly and the most interesting missing things) honestly i would like to dig more in the minelaying operations from major and minor soviet warships.

I think it's a bit forgot and it's sad because while most of talks (also on tsushima) it's over support-operations and (more or less) failed surface actions, some victories were scored with mines and should be more clearly listed and remembered (but maybe i missed some kind of major page collecting all of them).


BTW:
here March 1943 in Arctic.

Almost nothing new.

It's said on 5 March that now the German intelligence knew about the voyages of the submarines from Far East to Arctic.
5 subs are known to be arrived, while Germans has knowledge of other 4 that have been completed in Gorki and already transfered.

Clean confirmation for sub. and anti-sub action.
About sinking of Johannisberger (by M-122) it's also said that crew was saved.
Confirmed without other interesting details the sinking of Ajax (by S-101) and the loss of K-3 by UJ.


PS
The user on tsushima that asked for details on a MAS operation close Elba Island in Italy contacted me on another forum.
I've managed to find an article in italian, that give only small additional details (name of italian commander, wounded ones saved etc.) but being an action of the R.S.I. and not the Regia Marina, there are even less data and probably documents were also lost in 1945.

[lupodimare89]

Ok checked the first half of April 1943 (second one is absent) and absolutely nothing.

Checked May 1943 and...


Most interesting event it's reported on 10 May.
It say that on 8 May, after a report of soviet coastal shelling from batteries in Ribachi against "small german small vessels", it say that "One motor minesweeper was hit by an unexploded torpedo. "
It's not 100% sure that the location was the same one.
Who made the attack and what was the actual target and result?
Checking here http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/pro ... var2=wert2 it mention only a failed attack of M-172 the day before.
So this leave torpedo bomber or MTB as possible attacker.
(But it's still possible that the event happened in western Norrway: often the KTB "mix" them).



Confirmed the double success of S-56 on 17 May, sinking of Eurostadt and damaging with unexploded torpedo the Wartheland.
It's explicitly confirmed the second one as damaged.


On the daily shelling and counter-shelling of Ribachi peninsula, germans reported a direct hit scored by soviets on the steamer Valencia (as i said i've not much interest in this, but i guess that someone could find it interesting because basically there were almost daily shelling there).

[igorr]

Another example of bad translation? R.152 was hit by dude shell from shore gun.

[lupodimare89]

Not a wonder, but better be safe than sorry...


Meanwhile i've also kept reading that interesting book about the naval warfare in Civil War. It's really true that's very very much sided... basically the "reds" appears just as a bunch of incompetent drunk cowards, and when there are failures or losses on the White side, there is never a comment about why it happened...

Still it's interesting that even if sometimes forget to say the date or the details, it show that there were a NUMBER of targets sunk-damaged-seized on both sides also in naval engagements that i've never heard before.


I've found however a line in Volga chronicles that puzzle me. Once again i've issue with grammar.

21 мая белые перешли в наступление на Свиные Горы. При этом батареи, размещенные у деревни Котловка, обстреляли суда 3-го дивизиона. Красная флотилия начала отход, при этом канонерка «Товарищ Маркин» столкнулась со сторожевым катером № 107. Катер затонул, а на «Маркине» заклинило руль.
Зато на следующий день красная флотилия пополнилась канонерской лодкой «Память Володарского», и в тот же день пришла из ремонта канонерка «Терек».

Exactly what happened? If i've understood well it was an accidental collission and the n°107 wasn't a white ship.
Usually other internet sources are rare of details about these riverine events, but i've noticed that Navypedia reported that on that same day (21 May 1919) in "Volga River", the Whites should have sunk the soviet floating battery n°2 (1 gun of 203mm and 1 of 76mm).
But i'm almost sure that this is a clear confusion of the loss of the floating battery n°2 in battle with the British in Caspian Sea (that occurred on that exact day).

[igorr]

It seems like collision between two red ships.