Soviet Naval Battles

[igorr]

Damages not named - i think something like glass broken and safety fuse blown. This damages actually not affect on subs combat readiness etc.

[andrus]

Just to be clear - both air attacks (8.7. and 11.8.) were made by German planes.
Attack on 8.Juli was probably only one which caused some damage to German sub in year 1941 in eastern Baltic.
I'm not totally sure about U 144.

Attack of 11.August is described in KTB Skl: "Feind-U-Boot Typ Dekabrist durch eigenes Flugzeug mit Bomben und Bordwaffen angegriffen. Vernichtung wahrscheinlich."

[lupodimare89]

Damages not named - i think something like glass broken and safety fuse blown. This damages actually not affect on subs combat readiness etc.

Understood... usually i try to include also these ones in my lists, or they should much much shorter ^^

Attack on 8.Juli was probably only one which caused some damage to German sub in year 1941 in eastern Baltic.

Apart these attacks, i've previously found at least other two..
U-149 on 26 June 1941, light damages by unidentified aircrafts or patrol boats.
U-140 on 21 July 1941, damages almost surely by unidentified Soviet patrol boats.

At these we could add also Vesihisi on 5 August 1941, (probably by aux.minesw. Mezhinsky, MO 142 and 212), with light damages (but the only occasion that had a Finnish sub getting some kind of direct damages that needed little repair, after soviet attack).

And finally of course the sinking of U-144 by sub ShCh-307.

The two attacks in June and July were probably close Soviet units, igor wrote a bit about it.
Due status of German invasion in early months of war of 1941, it's probably unknown who made the attacks.

[lupodimare89]

Checked October and November 1943 in Arctic.

Very little for both.

Some sites reported, as HM, that on 4/October it was Soviet submarine L-15 that sunk UJ-1214.
This is one of the old claims and the KTB say that ship was:
lost at 05.07. Outlet of Bussesund. During an escort." Probably due mine."
We already discussed this case, and that Germans found other (own) drifting mines.



All fine for sinking of Ammerland made by S-55.
At first it said it was due mine. Later give confirmation of torpedo due observation of seaplane during the attack.


Even less job for November 1943.
On HM it reported once again of L-15: sinking a "MS-Trawler" on 24 November at 05.45.
It was possible that it was a very small cutter boat? And because of this not reported on Morozov list?

On town.ural.ru it said about an attack against Norwegian fishing cutters, but last time i checked it didn't talk about an hit.

Obviously KTB say nothing.
On that same day was lost by mine a small merchant, but it was far south (Aalesund).

[igorr]

On HM it reported once again of L-15: sinking a "MS-Trawler" on 24 November at 05.45.
It was possible that it was a very small cutter boat? And because of this not reported on Morozov list?

This may be group of norvegian fishermans, which didn't see torpedoes or not reported about it to germans.

[lupodimare89]

Thanks,
Sorry if i'm taking some time (i'm in a study period).
I've yet to finish the checking for the next two months, but meanwhile i would put on show again a case that (re-reading) i think has some troubles.

It's on Baltic Sea, and reguard the submarine U-348.

On 26/July/44, 19.35 db-aanval, it suffered lichte schade in AO33
As reply you said it was a counter-attack from SKA Nrs. 82 and 103 and MO-108.
After sinking of MO-101.
However if i'm right the loss of MO- 101 occurred on 1/August. (according the Morozov list i have).

On 31/July/44 00.16 attack by Soviet speedboat,no damage, one man overboard (missing) in AO33
You put as possible resolution an attack from Il-2 with one aircraft shot down and later cutters searching for them.
And that's ok.

On 1/August/44 07.30 6 db door escorteschip,
You said that should have been Il-2, even if hour differed.


Considering that the loss of MO-101 was on 1/August. Who caused the two attacks on 26 July and 1 August? They have to be switched by mistake? or the ones that attacked on 26 July were others crafts/planes?
Or the loss of MO-101 actually happened on 26 July and not on 1 August?

Just to be sure, i've checked on HM and U-370, after sinking MO-101, reported no depth charge attack.

[igorr]

It's on Baltic Sea, and reguard the submarine U-348.

On 26/July/44, 19.35 db-aanval, it suffered lichte schade in AO33
As reply you said it was a counter-attack from SKA Nrs. 82 and 103 and MO-108.
After sinking of MO-101.
However if i'm right the loss of MO- 101 occurred on 1/August. (according the Morozov list i have).

I'm just look at this post (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1815501) and didn't see things you wrote. My answer was "This must be Il-2, which conducted AS patrol and twice sighted enemy sub, but times differ in both cases. No other variants, no words about bombings and results."
I think you mistakes my answers and put answer for 26.7. on 1.8 and vice versa.

On 1/August/44 07.30 6 db door escorteschip,
You said that should have been Il-2, even if hour differed.

As above, your mistake.

[lupodimare89]

Gosh.. yes sorry.
Should really start at some point to make a general re-checking of the whole discussion. But i can't really do it now...

[lupodimare89]

Back again (sorry for the delay, had to study).

Here what i collected for December 1943 and January 1944 in Arctic.

5 December 1943
Off Sakriskjaer lighthouse, leaving Domefjord.
I've been unable to locate both the places. It was Soviet area or south of Norrway?
R-304 sighted 2 PT boats. Gunfire, PTboats escaped.


8 December
U-277 fired machine guns against enemy small submarine in AB 3539
At h0100
It's a bit strange, because the grid square place it just south of Svalbard, there were allied "small subs" there? or maybe some kind of mistake?

12 December
Loss V-6106 a est di Vadso alle 2055
We've already seen it (but i missed to record it on the italian forum, and now i will add it).
You've said that minewas from MO-4's, laid at 8.12.43.
It's known the identity of the boats that laid them?
KTB say there were 24 killed plus the commander.

Some few detail about the MTB attack of 22 December.
The KTB just say that " Material damages and losses were light"
Confirmed 5 Soviets POW, claimed 3 attacking MTBs sunk destroyed and "others" probably damaged (of 5 attacker).
Nothing new to add, apart that as expected they didn't speak about the Maria.
On another old site (http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/BRT%201943.htm) it further gave detail of her (Hilfsschiff 81 x HOLLAND
33,9metres 200grt )

A little detail: you've said that TK-14 was sunk by M-365 or V-6108.
I've an old collected line from a Morozov Q&A and he said that she was actually was rammed and then finished by V-6115
(http://wap.brummel.borda.ru/?1-14-0-00000005-000-160-0)
But maybe it was an old reply and was later corrected.



28 December 1943
We've already seen that Morozov believed R-64 to be victim of drifting mine.
So could not be given to soviets.
The KTB just say she sunk "south of Honningvaag after striking mine.Area closed because suspicious of mine."
This line is a bit suspect..
Because USUALLY the Germans say quickly if it was a drifting one, and such line was usually given for fear of enemy mines.
But it's too poor of detail for being a real clue.



Much less for January 1944

28 Jan.
Confirmation of sinking of Heinrich Schulte by S-56


25 January 1944
Loss of tanker Mil (244 GRT). Due mine off Hecheroey, at h.11.30 in Varangerfjord. 6 Killed.
Later it say that on 30 January, were swept 4 Soviet mines (type M-31) in east Varangerfjord.
Loss of tanker and mine sweeping connected? who laid the mines?

[igorr]

5 December 1943
Off Sakriskjaer lighthouse, leaving Domefjord.
I've been unable to locate both the places. It was Soviet area or south of Norrway?
R-304 sighted 2 PT boats. Gunfire, PTboats escaped.

This is little to north from Bergen. PT-boats was british or norvegian. R.304 shelled them togheter with R.305.

8 December
U-277 fired machine guns against enemy small submarine in AB 3539
At h0100
It's a bit strange, because the grid square place it just south of Svalbard, there were allied "small subs" there? or maybe some kind of mistake?

100% false sighting. Soviet subs never operated near Spitzbergen, and AFAIK british subs also not present there at this time.

12 December
Loss V-6106 a est di Vadso alle 2055
We've already seen it (but i missed to record it on the italian forum, and now i will add it).
You've said that minewas from MO-4's, laid at 8.12.43.
It's known the identity of the boats that laid them?
KTB say there were 24 killed plus the commander.

MO-112/113/131. Mines was laid on 8.12.43. 24 men was MIA including commander, not +.

On another old site (http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/BRT%201943.htm) it further gave detail of her (Hilfsschiff 81 x HOLLAND 33,9metres 200grt )

Germans hasn't such designations as "Hilfsschiff". MARIA was just durch motor ship in german fracht.

A little detail: you've said that TK-14 was sunk by M-365 or V-6108.
I've an old collected line from a Morozov Q&A and he said that she was actually was rammed and then finished by V-6115
(http://wap.brummel.borda.ru/?1-14-0-00000005-000-160-0)
But maybe it was an old reply and was later corrected.

V.6115 was rammed not she make ram. TKA (accidentally?) struck in her board, was bounced and finished by MRS BALI which was next in line after V.6115.

28 December 1943
We've already seen that Morozov believed R-64 to be victim of drifting mine.
So could not be given to soviets.
The KTB just say she sunk "south of Honningvaag after striking mine.Area closed because suspicious of mine."
This line is a bit suspect..
Because USUALLY the Germans say quickly if it was a drifting one, and such line was usually given for fear of enemy mines.
But it's too poor of detail for being a real clue.

In KTB Adm. Norwegen said that R.64 hit by probably drifting mine. That day and day before wind was very strong (up to 11).

25 January 1944
Loss of tanker Mil (244 GRT). Due mine off Hecheroey, at h.11.30 in Varangerfjord. 6 Killed.
Later it say that on 30 January, were swept 4 Soviet mines (type M-31) in east Varangerfjord.
Loss of tanker and mine sweeping connected? who laid the mines?

Can't say for sure about connection, but very possibly. Mines was laid by MO-112/113/131 on 19.1.44. They laid 6 mines so 4 sweept is fit to this case.

[lupodimare89]

Good, and interesting add for the MO.

Could be actually interesting to evaluate if (in the end) the MO made more damages with their mines rather than the MTB with torpedoes in Arctic. Surely they sunk more GRT at this point, and on their side, the MTB had however sunk that pair of larger minesweepers in 1944.


BTW
Now i've ended my sessions of exams and will have some more spare time this summer.

Just yesterday i've noticed the update discussion of the Battle of Someri in Baltic Sea on tsushima.net.
And i've took opportunity to re-read it all.

http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1145&p=17



I've noticed how you've mentioned at some point, on German side losses, not only M-17 with 4 wia (by air attack), but also Nettlebeck with 2 wia by "artillery". But i've also read that quickly Morozov replied and said tht also Nettlebeck was surely hit by aircraft.

I've not exactly understood if it's confirmed, because at first it say

Our data: Departure 5 Pe-2 fighter escort (no departure time). From 13.15 to 13.18 stabbed dive 5km. north Sommers, 1 Transport 2 CR 1 TFR dropped 17 FAB-100. 2 direct hits in transport, 2 hits in KL, 1 hit in another CR.
Finnish data: In the three bombers attacked 13.15 MH «Riilahti». Was also attacked German mother ship "Nettelbek" in which two wounded. In the area of the attack were KL «Turunmaa» and boat VMV 1.

But later

PB "Nettelbek" recorded three Soviet bombers raid at 05.14-05.20. Planes dropped bombs 7-8 medium caliber from a great height, which formed in 150-200 meters at the stern on both sides. Damage and no casualties. More raids PB that day did not fix.

But maybe it was another attack.


I've take the opportunity and checked the main KTB to try gathering more details.
Apart confirmation that M/s were M-17 and M-19 (not M-18 and M-37 as sometimes said), there it's said that first was involved M-17 (slightly damaged and wasted all ammunition) and later M-19 with Nettlebeck.

At this point the KTB seems to speak about 2 different engagements (or consecuitive? no hour given).
First M-19 and and Nettlebeck against enemy (expending all ammunition), and claiming to have "liberated the finns" due their own initiative.

Later say again Nettlebeck and "heavy gun carrier" (SAT1 Ost). against "enemy".

At this point it just say "neither side was particularly affected". (= IF there was some very minor/splinter damage, wasn't important).

However this could be connected with your initial option of Nettlebeck lightly damaged due "artillery"?



Another interesting additional detail it's that recently, at the end of the discussion, there is a mention of the FInnish MTB NUOLI being engaged in night fight on 9 July, and suffering one hit by Soviet fire.

Morozov himself wondered if it was MO or even minesweeper action, the next reply say about MO.
The units listed there are MO-103, MO-109, MO-213 and MO-306 (lost due artillery from island).


If the light damage on Nettlebeck can't be confirmed, this one on Nuoli was the only damage caused by Soviets during the surface engagements.

[Juha Tompuri]

there is a mention of the FInnish MTB NUOLI being engaged in night fight on 9 July, and suffering one hit by Soviet fire.

Yep.
The war diary of the Finnish MTB squadron mentions that at the attack of three MO-boats (shortly?) after 0340 hours Nuoli got one hit from a 13mm (=12,7mm, JT) round.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3749767

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

Thanks!
BTW: soon (as soon i finished checking the Arctic KTBs) we will move on again on Baltic, so there will be more talks about Finnish possibly.


Meanwhile, Andrey on Tsushima.net replied about an unsolved fighting in Black Sea.

At night 17/18.4.43 TKA-76, -86, SKA-044, -054, -084 as escort for convoy of small transport vessels to Myskhako bridgehead had several engagements with S-Boote and R-Boote. SKA-054 during the engagement has hit a mine and sunk. SKA-044 and TKA-76 were damaged.
2 seiners were sunk by German torpedoes along the pier in Myskhako

From German side R165, R35, R36 and S28, S47, S51, S72, S102 took part. 5 MAS also were in area and even saw Soviet boats but didn't took part in the engagements.
The sole damaged German boat was R35 - the result of the sudden attack of MBR-2 flyin

That's interesting because also a previous Morozov list put the SKA-054 among the victims of German E-boats, and now have to be removed.

[igorr]

No, because mine was laid by S-boots!

[lupodimare89]

Awesome how you all three (Andrey, Morozov and you) replied all together at the same time xD