Soviet Naval Battles
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Thanks, so i guessed. I think that Navypedia could have mixed the two things (or just reported something of old).
BTW here June and July 1943 in Arctic:
June 1943:
Confirmed the loss of Birka. Addittionally, it say 115 MIA. Other 8 mines were later swept there.
21 June:
Some interesting detail about the Foula loss.
You've already mentioned the possibility that the boat was attempting to desert.
Kriegsmarine seems to think it was a clear attempt: they said.
“Norwegian ship of 106 BRT” Tried to escape in Russian territorial waters. 2 direct bombs hit and sunk at north-west Cape Majakka. Attack from 09.03 and 12.41.
They believed the German air attack had sunk her, but clearly she escaped.
Ship is said to have departed from Vardo and had to reach Vadso, with 3 Norwegian and 1 German of Luftwaffe.
Then they said "“Before it was sunk by our planes, a bearing was obtained on the cutter for the last time by Battery Kiberg of 130°, distance 28Km. Therefore an attempt to desert is quite certain”.
If i'm right the Soviets made 2 KIA and 2 POW of the crew, and crew claimed they attempted to defect.
The German was among the killed right? It could have been interesting to know if he too wanted to defect or was captured by the Norwegian.
(i guess the survived ones were treated as POW by Soviets).
Another interesting thing it's that Kriegsmarine appear to be very distance from Luftwaffe about this accident: they make only an evaluation and appears they had no clear power/right to simply ask Luftwaffe for explains.
(or so it seems to me).
I also think that the whole event could still be an accident: with Germans believing it was an attempt to escape, and attacked the boat. I guess once they were captured by Soviets, telling they were trying to defect, was a logical attempt to not be treated as prisoners.
On that page of HM site with the list of all the subs attacks i had found this:
27.06.1943 b 06:30 sj S-51 T Hilfsminensucher + Tanafjord
That has no clear data actually. I found in that day some minesweeper actions from Germans, but no report of loss or clear report of sub attack.
on July 1943
All Subs events confirmed:
M-106 rammed and sunk.
Sinking of M-346 vt S-56 (it say 2 torpedo hits, and 32 MIA), and NKi-09 (called NKJ-09) by same sub (21 MIA),
Last thing it's a curious event.
On 17 July it say.
17Jul43
" At 0145 radio intelligence intercepted soviet message from “guard boat 408”: “Fighting against 4 enemy vessels. Position 16°07’N” "
Pretty much curious, not a word of a possible German side of the events. What do you know about it?
Maybe this boat shelled some Norwegian cutters, but there is not a word about this possibility on KTB.
BTW here June and July 1943 in Arctic:
June 1943:
Confirmed the loss of Birka. Addittionally, it say 115 MIA. Other 8 mines were later swept there.
21 June:
Some interesting detail about the Foula loss.
You've already mentioned the possibility that the boat was attempting to desert.
Kriegsmarine seems to think it was a clear attempt: they said.
“Norwegian ship of 106 BRT” Tried to escape in Russian territorial waters. 2 direct bombs hit and sunk at north-west Cape Majakka. Attack from 09.03 and 12.41.
They believed the German air attack had sunk her, but clearly she escaped.
Ship is said to have departed from Vardo and had to reach Vadso, with 3 Norwegian and 1 German of Luftwaffe.
Then they said "“Before it was sunk by our planes, a bearing was obtained on the cutter for the last time by Battery Kiberg of 130°, distance 28Km. Therefore an attempt to desert is quite certain”.
If i'm right the Soviets made 2 KIA and 2 POW of the crew, and crew claimed they attempted to defect.
The German was among the killed right? It could have been interesting to know if he too wanted to defect or was captured by the Norwegian.
(i guess the survived ones were treated as POW by Soviets).
Another interesting thing it's that Kriegsmarine appear to be very distance from Luftwaffe about this accident: they make only an evaluation and appears they had no clear power/right to simply ask Luftwaffe for explains.
(or so it seems to me).
I also think that the whole event could still be an accident: with Germans believing it was an attempt to escape, and attacked the boat. I guess once they were captured by Soviets, telling they were trying to defect, was a logical attempt to not be treated as prisoners.
On that page of HM site with the list of all the subs attacks i had found this:
27.06.1943 b 06:30 sj S-51 T Hilfsminensucher + Tanafjord
That has no clear data actually. I found in that day some minesweeper actions from Germans, but no report of loss or clear report of sub attack.
on July 1943
All Subs events confirmed:
M-106 rammed and sunk.
Sinking of M-346 vt S-56 (it say 2 torpedo hits, and 32 MIA), and NKi-09 (called NKJ-09) by same sub (21 MIA),
Last thing it's a curious event.
On 17 July it say.
17Jul43
" At 0145 radio intelligence intercepted soviet message from “guard boat 408”: “Fighting against 4 enemy vessels. Position 16°07’N” "
Pretty much curious, not a word of a possible German side of the events. What do you know about it?
Maybe this boat shelled some Norwegian cutters, but there is not a word about this possibility on KTB.
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
One of captured men was German. He say that m/b has her engine broken and not to make escape attempt.lupodimare89 wrote: 21 June:
Some interesting detail about the Foula loss.
Yhis is soviet report about attack. No German ships observed it. Possible target in Bemerkungen - some UJ's.On that page of HM site with the list of all the subs attacks i had found this:
27.06.1943 b 06:30 sj S-51 T Hilfsminensucher + Tanafjord
That has no clear data actually. I found in that day some minesweeper actions from Germans, but no report of loss or clear report of sub attack.
NKI-09 - 19 MIA and 2 KIA.on July 1943
All Subs events confirmed:
M-106 rammed and sunk.
Sinking of M-346 vt S-56 (it say 2 torpedo hits, and 32 MIA), and NKi-09 (called NKJ-09) by same sub (21 MIA),
I have no explanation for this strange message. Oblivously some kind of mistake.On 17 July it say.
17Jul43
" At 0145 radio intelligence intercepted soviet message from “guard boat 408”: “Fighting against 4 enemy vessels. Position 16°07’N” "
Pretty much curious, not a word of a possible German side of the events. What do you know about it?
Maybe this boat shelled some Norwegian cutters, but there is not a word about this possibility on KTB.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
That's interesting, and could explain that Luftwaffe really believed it was a defection attempt.One of captured men was German. He say that m/b has her engine broken and not to make escape attempt.
Not a wonder there could be others. I remeber that i signed some very unbelievable (but interesting) for Baltic, including U-boats into Peipus Lake and Soviets close to launch aircraft carrier.I have no explanation for this strange message. Oblivously some kind of mistake.
BTW on Tsushima.net got some replies for the clash in 1 August 1943 in Black Sea.
But sadly it's unknown the main hole of the events: the identity of the S-boats involved and the identity of the one that got one hit (missing documents). First of all it's corrected and said that it was R-30 and not R-60 to be involved with the MALs.
About soviets units the order of the one met was: first KATSh-178 (attacked, but escaped undamaged).
Than SKA-0712 attempted alone a counter-attack. Later she's joined by ground artillery and BKA-112 and BKA-323.
These two were out to join the returning SKA-0112, BKA-111, BKA-121 (their raid had the reaction of F418 and F467: but no battle-damage caused).
Finally there was raid of 4 Il-2 and than 2 R-10 aircrafts, only effect was a friendly fire rocket on SKA-0712 that caused slight damages.
A pity that the name of the S-boat that got the hit (probably by soviet boats it's said) will not be known, however it appears that once more the German action against Primorsko-Akhtarskaya was a failure.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Another little addition.
Was re-reading my table-page for the ASW attacks in Arctic and i've found that one reply you gave was on wrong date.
The event occurred on 30 April 1945 (not 3 April, we've checked on wrong date before).
HM reports for U-711 a "Catalina-type" attack with "schade" caused.
Location: AC88
Checked the place (ps i've found this awesome site to find quickly the German grid squares: http://grid.nylle.de/find)
And its exactly in front of Murmansk.
There was some soviet Catalina attack reported?
Was re-reading my table-page for the ASW attacks in Arctic and i've found that one reply you gave was on wrong date.
The event occurred on 30 April 1945 (not 3 April, we've checked on wrong date before).
HM reports for U-711 a "Catalina-type" attack with "schade" caused.
Location: AC88
Checked the place (ps i've found this awesome site to find quickly the German grid squares: http://grid.nylle.de/find)
And its exactly in front of Murmansk.
There was some soviet Catalina attack reported?
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
This was B-25 from 118 ORAP VVS SF. Dropped 8 DC's in 2 passes.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Thanks, and interesting to add an aircraft as the B-25 to the list.
Made the check for August and September 1943 in Arctic.
I've missed to find some detail or German opinion of the loss of U-639, but i guess that the KTB specific of the U-boat groups could have some (i've missed to read them yet), but could adds little to nothing at the already known sinking.
On August we've confirmation of all the submarine success: Rudesheimer damaged, and UJ-1202 and 1217 sunk.
As additional details it give 21 MIA for Uj1202 and 26 MIA for Uj1217.
Most interesting detail of all it's how it appear clear that while the effect of Soviet sinkings of German/Norw. merchants in Arctic was a very limitate portion of the large number of merchants voyages, it states multiple time that the lack of escort forced dozens of merchants to delay their depart.
From this point of view, it could even be said that Soviet subs were more successfull in slowering the flow of German merchants sinking the submarine chasers or patrol ships rather than sinking the merchants themselves.
The events around the loss of merchant ANTJE FRITZEN were already discussed previously.
There are only other 3 events with potential interest:
On 13 September the Germans intercepted that Soviet "minesweeper MS-59" shelled 2 submarines.
At 23.05 of 12 September, northeastern tip of Novaya Zemlya.
During the Night between 14 and 15 September 1943, at 02.03 a convoy of "war transport" KT-3 with 2 naval landing crafts as escort, was attacked southwest of Kilberg by 2 MTBs.
MTBs reported as retreating after a short gunfire, with cover of smoke.
Later it's however evaluated that one MTB was probably sunk.
I don't think we already seen this event.
They were possibly the same MTB that were seen by Antje Fritzen?
reported on 28 September
Loss of patrol vessel "VP-5705" in "West Fjord" (i've been unable to locate it, so could possibly be in Western Norway).
19 MIA, at 17.35 of day 27 September.
Later it's said it could have been an accidental explosion.
Made the check for August and September 1943 in Arctic.
I've missed to find some detail or German opinion of the loss of U-639, but i guess that the KTB specific of the U-boat groups could have some (i've missed to read them yet), but could adds little to nothing at the already known sinking.
On August we've confirmation of all the submarine success: Rudesheimer damaged, and UJ-1202 and 1217 sunk.
As additional details it give 21 MIA for Uj1202 and 26 MIA for Uj1217.
Most interesting detail of all it's how it appear clear that while the effect of Soviet sinkings of German/Norw. merchants in Arctic was a very limitate portion of the large number of merchants voyages, it states multiple time that the lack of escort forced dozens of merchants to delay their depart.
From this point of view, it could even be said that Soviet subs were more successfull in slowering the flow of German merchants sinking the submarine chasers or patrol ships rather than sinking the merchants themselves.
The events around the loss of merchant ANTJE FRITZEN were already discussed previously.
There are only other 3 events with potential interest:
On 13 September the Germans intercepted that Soviet "minesweeper MS-59" shelled 2 submarines.
At 23.05 of 12 September, northeastern tip of Novaya Zemlya.
During the Night between 14 and 15 September 1943, at 02.03 a convoy of "war transport" KT-3 with 2 naval landing crafts as escort, was attacked southwest of Kilberg by 2 MTBs.
MTBs reported as retreating after a short gunfire, with cover of smoke.
Later it's however evaluated that one MTB was probably sunk.
I don't think we already seen this event.
They were possibly the same MTB that were seen by Antje Fritzen?
reported on 28 September
Loss of patrol vessel "VP-5705" in "West Fjord" (i've been unable to locate it, so could possibly be in Western Norway).
19 MIA, at 17.35 of day 27 September.
Later it's said it could have been an accidental explosion.
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Well, 1202 and 1217 sunk in September.lupodimare89 wrote: On August we've confirmation of all the submarine success: Rudesheimer damaged, and UJ-1202 and 1217 sunk.
As additional details it give 21 MIA for Uj1202 and 26 MIA for Uj1217.
1202 has only 14 MIA + one WIA deceased later. 1217 has 3 KIA to add to 26 MIA.
True.From this point of view, it could even be said that Soviet subs were more successfull in slowering the flow of German merchants sinking the submarine chasers or patrol ships rather than sinking the merchants themselves.
There was various sovit minesweepers but no reports about U-boats. They just sweep mines.On 13 September the Germans intercepted that Soviet "minesweeper MS-59" shelled 2 submarines.
At 23.05 of 12 September, northeastern tip of Novaya Zemlya.
No MTB sunk - that was TKA Nr. 13 and 14. They claimed tanker and transport sunk but in reality hit KT.3 with only one gunshell. Other two unit was MFP.226 and 196. 226 has her mashines broken but germans claimed that this was not in result of clash.During the Night between 14 and 15 September 1943, at 02.03 a convoy of "war transport" KT-3 with 2 naval landing crafts as escort, was attacked southwest of Kilberg by 2 MTBs.
MTBs reported as retreating after a short gunfire, with cover of smoke.
Later it's however evaluated that one MTB was probably sunk.
No this was another MTB's.They were possibly the same MTB that were seen by Antje Fritzen?
Place was 15 miles SW Bodoe, far from Far North. With 19 MIA were also 5 KIA. Cause is internel explosion - no mines or torpedoes there AFAIK.reported on 28 September
Loss of patrol vessel "VP-5705" in "West Fjord" (i've been unable to locate it, so could possibly be in Western Norway).
19 MIA, at 17.35 of day 27 September.
Later it's said it could have been an accidental explosion.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Thanks for all,
And yes, both UJ were of course on September.
KT.3, it's this ship? http://www.navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_tb_kt2.htm
Former Norwegian torpedo boat... if she's her, it could be an unique opponent for the Soviet D-3 class in Arctic.
I guess she got a single 12.7mm bullet. Still an interesting case, if she was the former Norw. ship.
(more or less as the first MTB engagmenet in Arctic of 14Sept1941: that too included TK 13,14 (and 15) and resulted in a single bullet hit on patrol ship).
And yes, both UJ were of course on September.
This skirmish seems still interesting.No MTB sunk - that was TKA Nr. 13 and 14. They claimed tanker and transport sunk but in reality hit KT.3 with only one gunshell. Other two unit was MFP.226 and 196. 226 has her mashines broken but germans claimed that this was not in result of clash.
KT.3, it's this ship? http://www.navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_tb_kt2.htm
Former Norwegian torpedo boat... if she's her, it could be an unique opponent for the Soviet D-3 class in Arctic.
I guess she got a single 12.7mm bullet. Still an interesting case, if she was the former Norw. ship.
(more or less as the first MTB engagmenet in Arctic of 14Sept1941: that too included TK 13,14 (and 15) and resulted in a single bullet hit on patrol ship).
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
No, KT.3 was german ship - "kriegstransporter", only one that type served outside Black and Mediterranean seas.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Before going on with the months, i've found another cases of submarine ASW that deserve checking.
On this site: http://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/t ... ssr-mbr-2/
It's mentioned an attack of MBR-2 in Arctic that resulted in damages on U-752 on 4/Sept/41.
Actually on HM the attack of 4/Sept it's reported as causing "geen schade", no damage.
But on 15/sept/41 it's reported a "lichte schade".
Location it's different: AW25 rather than AW22.
Still it's Kola Peninusula.
What could have attacked the sub?
Two days later the sub was at Kirkenes. Patrol ended or return due damage?
From the same source, another event:
But in Baltic Sea.
9 July 1941, 13 miles sout-west Hanko. attacked with bombs a surfaced submarine, with reported damages and said could have been U-149.
However this time on HM it's said that U-149 returned home on 11 July, no mention to attacks.
On this site: http://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/t ... ssr-mbr-2/
It's mentioned an attack of MBR-2 in Arctic that resulted in damages on U-752 on 4/Sept/41.
Actually on HM the attack of 4/Sept it's reported as causing "geen schade", no damage.
But on 15/sept/41 it's reported a "lichte schade".
Location it's different: AW25 rather than AW22.
Still it's Kola Peninusula.
What could have attacked the sub?
Two days later the sub was at Kirkenes. Patrol ended or return due damage?
From the same source, another event:
But in Baltic Sea.
9 July 1941, 13 miles sout-west Hanko. attacked with bombs a surfaced submarine, with reported damages and said could have been U-149.
However this time on HM it's said that U-149 returned home on 11 July, no mention to attacks.
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Attack at 4.9.41 was conducted by 2 MBR-2 from 49 OAE. But no german sub was actually attacked that day. U.752 report no bombing in apropriate time, so claim by aircrafts is error.
Can't say anything about U.149.
Can't say anything about U.149.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Ok, and about 15.9 ?
http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/pro ... gebnis.php
From HM it seems an attack from sub.chasers or other escort.
http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/pro ... gebnis.php
From HM it seems an attack from sub.chasers or other escort.
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
At time when MBR-2 attacked, no record in KTB besides that boat is near shore. AFAIK planes attacked "sub" in open sea.
15.9.41 sub was bombed many times by various ships and cutters, and most stark bombing was at 16.55 by ship designated as "destroyer'. Boat spring and schock in water, but has no any significant damages. She go to base because she has no caliparonen for oxigen regeneration.
I must say that sources like you linked above emerged many times in various game-portals. It is copy/paste from russian-languaged books which has in their foreign sources outdated and incorrect books like Rohwer etc. Very unreliable.
15.9.41 sub was bombed many times by various ships and cutters, and most stark bombing was at 16.55 by ship designated as "destroyer'. Boat spring and schock in water, but has no any significant damages. She go to base because she has no caliparonen for oxigen regeneration.
I must say that sources like you linked above emerged many times in various game-portals. It is copy/paste from russian-languaged books which has in their foreign sources outdated and incorrect books like Rohwer etc. Very unreliable.
Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
No claims against submarines known to me on 9. July 1941.
On 8. July at 14:06 o'clock U 142 was attacked in AO91 (see Duikboot)
Attack near Hanko occured on 11. August 1941.
On 8. July at 14:06 o'clock U 142 was attacked in AO91 (see Duikboot)
Attack near Hanko occured on 11. August 1941.
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)
Thanks andrus! Nice to see someone else join ^^No claims against submarines known to me on 9. July 1941.
On 8. July at 14:06 o'clock U 142 was attacked in AO91 (see Duikboot)
Attack near Hanko occured on 11. August 1941.
Wth HM we can see that U-142 got no damages...
However nor U-142 or U-149 was subject to the attack of 11 August.
For now i've been able to identify only two Germ subs damaged (one light one probably moderate/medium) in 1941, but both were earlier.
I took again in hands the old discussion on tsushima that listed some data: http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5644&p=415.9.41 sub was bombed many times by various ships and cutters, and most stark bombing was at 16.55 by ship designated as "destroyer'. Boat spring and schock in water, but has no any significant damages. She go to base because she has no caliparonen for oxigen regeneration.
I must say that sources like you linked above emerged many times in various game-portals. It is copy/paste from russian-languaged books which has in their foreign sources outdated and incorrect books like Rohwer etc. Very unreliable.
The most significant one that could be related with the attack on U-752 on 15.9 was patrol ship "Briz".
However after your description i'm bit unsure if list her among the lightly damages ones... or not list her, considering the damage as insignificant.