Forward Detachments 1943-45
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Forward Detachments 1943-45
Taken from Glantz "The Soviet Conduct of Tactical Maneuver"
regarding FORWARD DETACHMENTS
Tank Armies on the offensive, usually marched in two columns with two Mech/Tank Corps side by side with the rest following on behind. Similarly Mech/Tank Corps marched with 2 Tank Brigades in column with the remainder following on behind.
This is illustrated by the diagram attached which is of the 2nd Guards Tank Army during the Vistula Oder Offensive.
This example is taken from the 2nd Tank Army during the Lvov Sandomir Offensive
At the head of these columns would be:
Recce Groups
(1 Tank Company and 1 Recce Platoon)
10km behind them came:
Mine and Road Groups
( 1 Tank Platoon and a company of sappers)
This units job was to clear the road of mines and mark the road.
2-5km behind them came:
Forward Detachment (1-2 for each Tank Corps)
1 Tank Brigade (34 x T-34)
1 SAU Regt (21 x SUs)
Motor Rifle Battalion - 2-3 Companies (200 SMG troops)
Tank Destroyer Battery (4 x 76mm guns)
Sapper Company (80 Engineers) with some pontoons
operating 30km in front of the Main Body
Main Body of 2 Tanks Corps, 1 Mech Corps and Army sub units.
These Forward detachments are a key element in Soviet Tactical thinking as they provide the maneuver element of the Tank Army being small enough to find ways through the defences but large enough to conduct a decent fight against retreating enemy forces or hold a bridgehead unitl the main body arrives.
Typical rates of advance were 30km a day and Forward Detachments were used by Combined Arms Armies as well:
69th Army in Lvov Sandomir Offensive Forward Detachment:
2nd Bn 240 Rifle Regt of 117th Rifle Division (SMG troops) mounted on trucks
1 artillery battalion (12 76/122mm guns)
1 Tank Destroyer Battalion (12 x 45mm AT guns)
1 Sapper Company (80 men)
1 SAU Regt (21 x SU76)
Jan 1944 Zhitomir Operation
4 GTC as mobile group for 60 Army forms a forward detachment of:
381 Tank Bn
SAU Battery
2 SMG Companies
Jan 1944 Korsun Operation
Forward detachment of 6 Tank Army
233 Tank Brigade
SAU Rgt
Motor Rifle Bn
Tank destroyer battery
July 1944 Lvov Sandomir operation
Forward detachment of 5 GTA provided by the 1 Gd Tank Corps of
reinforced 17 Gd Tank Bde
Two leading Tank Corps of 2 Tank Army each put out 2 forward detachments of
Tank Bde
SAU Bn
2-3 SMG Companies
Sapper Company
details as my post above
The follow on Combined Arms Army the 69th puts out its own forward detachment, the purpose of which is to keep contact with the Tank Army. I have given its strength above but it was mounted on 50 trucks taken from the Army/Front Automobile Park. These would probably be GAZ-AA or Ford 6 1.5 tonne trucks as the four wheel trucks would normally only be used by artillery regiments as prime movers.
Jan 1945 Vistula Oder Operation
All Tank units put out 2 Forward Detachments:
Tank Army = Tank Corps
Tank Corps = Tank Brigade
Tank Brigade = Reinforced Tank Bn
Combined Arms Armies put out 2 Forward Detachments:
CA Army = Tank Bde
Rifle Corps = Rifle Regt
Rifle Division = Rifle Bn
So the 69 Army again puts out two FD to keep up with the 2 Tank Armies for example:
1006 Rifle Regt
41 Auto Regt
220 Separate Tank Bde
89 Separate Heavy Tank Regt
507 Tank destroyer Regt
SAU Bn
AA BN
Mortar Bn
Gd Mortar Bn (MLR)
Sapper Co
This in turn would form its own FD of a reinforced battalion.
regarding FORWARD DETACHMENTS
Tank Armies on the offensive, usually marched in two columns with two Mech/Tank Corps side by side with the rest following on behind. Similarly Mech/Tank Corps marched with 2 Tank Brigades in column with the remainder following on behind.
This is illustrated by the diagram attached which is of the 2nd Guards Tank Army during the Vistula Oder Offensive.
This example is taken from the 2nd Tank Army during the Lvov Sandomir Offensive
At the head of these columns would be:
Recce Groups
(1 Tank Company and 1 Recce Platoon)
10km behind them came:
Mine and Road Groups
( 1 Tank Platoon and a company of sappers)
This units job was to clear the road of mines and mark the road.
2-5km behind them came:
Forward Detachment (1-2 for each Tank Corps)
1 Tank Brigade (34 x T-34)
1 SAU Regt (21 x SUs)
Motor Rifle Battalion - 2-3 Companies (200 SMG troops)
Tank Destroyer Battery (4 x 76mm guns)
Sapper Company (80 Engineers) with some pontoons
operating 30km in front of the Main Body
Main Body of 2 Tanks Corps, 1 Mech Corps and Army sub units.
These Forward detachments are a key element in Soviet Tactical thinking as they provide the maneuver element of the Tank Army being small enough to find ways through the defences but large enough to conduct a decent fight against retreating enemy forces or hold a bridgehead unitl the main body arrives.
Typical rates of advance were 30km a day and Forward Detachments were used by Combined Arms Armies as well:
69th Army in Lvov Sandomir Offensive Forward Detachment:
2nd Bn 240 Rifle Regt of 117th Rifle Division (SMG troops) mounted on trucks
1 artillery battalion (12 76/122mm guns)
1 Tank Destroyer Battalion (12 x 45mm AT guns)
1 Sapper Company (80 men)
1 SAU Regt (21 x SU76)
Jan 1944 Zhitomir Operation
4 GTC as mobile group for 60 Army forms a forward detachment of:
381 Tank Bn
SAU Battery
2 SMG Companies
Jan 1944 Korsun Operation
Forward detachment of 6 Tank Army
233 Tank Brigade
SAU Rgt
Motor Rifle Bn
Tank destroyer battery
July 1944 Lvov Sandomir operation
Forward detachment of 5 GTA provided by the 1 Gd Tank Corps of
reinforced 17 Gd Tank Bde
Two leading Tank Corps of 2 Tank Army each put out 2 forward detachments of
Tank Bde
SAU Bn
2-3 SMG Companies
Sapper Company
details as my post above
The follow on Combined Arms Army the 69th puts out its own forward detachment, the purpose of which is to keep contact with the Tank Army. I have given its strength above but it was mounted on 50 trucks taken from the Army/Front Automobile Park. These would probably be GAZ-AA or Ford 6 1.5 tonne trucks as the four wheel trucks would normally only be used by artillery regiments as prime movers.
Jan 1945 Vistula Oder Operation
All Tank units put out 2 Forward Detachments:
Tank Army = Tank Corps
Tank Corps = Tank Brigade
Tank Brigade = Reinforced Tank Bn
Combined Arms Armies put out 2 Forward Detachments:
CA Army = Tank Bde
Rifle Corps = Rifle Regt
Rifle Division = Rifle Bn
So the 69 Army again puts out two FD to keep up with the 2 Tank Armies for example:
1006 Rifle Regt
41 Auto Regt
220 Separate Tank Bde
89 Separate Heavy Tank Regt
507 Tank destroyer Regt
SAU Bn
AA BN
Mortar Bn
Gd Mortar Bn (MLR)
Sapper Co
This in turn would form its own FD of a reinforced battalion.
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
I have translated most of this diagram but cannot quite pin down the items in orange circles, if anyone could help please?
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
миндн - миномётный дивизион
мцб - мотоциклетный батальон
зенап - зенитно-артиллерийский полк
зенад - зенитно-артиллерийский дивизион
Корп. тылы - Корпусные тылы
мцб - мотоциклетный батальон
зенап - зенитно-артиллерийский полк
зенад - зенитно-артиллерийский дивизион
Корп. тылы - Корпусные тылы
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
миндн - Mortar Division
мцб - Motorcycle Battalion
зенап - anti-aircraft artillery regiment
зенад - anti-aircraft artillery battalion
Корп. тылы - Corps rear area troops
So looking at the little 'mortar' symbols
234 Mortar Regiment with the O symbol is 82mm mortars
126 Gd Mortar Division with the [] symbol and two spikes off to the right - 120mm mortar??
41 Mortar Division [] symbol and with four spikes at each corner - 160mm mortar???
In the bottom right box there is a unit called "БОН (амфибий)" English = BON (amphibious). I cannot find a Bridge or a Vehicle using this designation - any ideas?
мцб - Motorcycle Battalion
зенап - anti-aircraft artillery regiment
зенад - anti-aircraft artillery battalion
Корп. тылы - Corps rear area troops
So looking at the little 'mortar' symbols
234 Mortar Regiment with the O symbol is 82mm mortars
126 Gd Mortar Division with the [] symbol and two spikes off to the right - 120mm mortar??
41 Mortar Division [] symbol and with four spikes at each corner - 160mm mortar???
In the bottom right box there is a unit called "БОН (амфибий)" English = BON (amphibious). I cannot find a Bridge or a Vehicle using this designation - any ideas?
- Jeff Leach
- Host - Archive section
- Posts: 1433
- Joined: 19 Jan 2010, 10:08
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
миндн = motar battalionDer Alte Fritz wrote:миндн - Mortar Division
there were 'Guards Mortar Divisions' (rocket artillery) but no 'Mortar Divisions' two my knowledge.
the use of 'SPA' = self propelled artillery, gives the wrong impression. The Soviets didn't have any self propelled artillery. 'SU' is a much better abbreviation.
126 Guards Mortar BattalionDer Alte Fritz wrote:126 Gd Mortar Division
41 Mortar BattalionDer Alte Fritz wrote:41 Mortar Division
also '1643 Light Artillery Regiment' (76mm guns)
-
- Member
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
possibly there was an extra attachment of bridging or rafts. the square may be comm or control
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
That has resolved most of the issues - if anyone has an idea about the symbols. These [] Square symbols are all Mortar units of some kind.
At the start of each column on the left is the symbol 'ПО' or PO which means Forward Detachment
Likewise the mysterious bOH might mean Combat Security (or Flank Guard) H? = Battalion (Amphibious)
At the start of each column on the left is the symbol 'ПО' or PO which means Forward Detachment
Likewise the mysterious bOH might mean Combat Security (or Flank Guard) H? = Battalion (Amphibious)
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
The Forward Detachment for 9 Gd Tank Corps is 47 Tank Bde and 369 Gd SAU Regt and the one for 12 Gd Mech Corps is made up of the 49 Gd Mech Bde, 393 Gd SAU Regt, 89 Gd Mortar Bn and 1/24 AA Regt SAU Bn
both are moving in parallel to the OOD Movement Support Detachment, one km in fron tof the main body so this would indicate at the point of penetration.
see here for a Soviet Military Glossary:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/sovmil-glossary.pdf
both are moving in parallel to the OOD Movement Support Detachment, one km in fron tof the main body so this would indicate at the point of penetration.
see here for a Soviet Military Glossary:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/sovmil-glossary.pdf
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
Most likely [engineer] special purpose battalion (amphibious cars)Der Alte Fritz wrote: Likewise the mysterious bOH might mean Combat Security (or Flank Guard) H? = Battalion (Amphibious)
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
So is it
БОН = батальон особого назначения ?
БОН = батальон особого назначения ?
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
Looks so.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
naznacheneniya is allocated or purpose ocob special ovo is an ending meaning " of " so the literal is as art says special purpose battalion
http://testofbattle.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1394
According to Leland Ness and Steve Zaloga's Red Army Handbook, Special Purpose Motorized Battalions were formed after May 1944 to take full advantage of the Lend-lease American DUKW amphibious trucks being delivered. Typical battalion organization was a HQ company, 2 line truck companies, a mortar company, pioneer company, and a maintenance company. Each line truck company had three platoons of three sections each. Each section has 3 DUKW. The mortar company had the same number of DUKW as a line company (27), but the pioneer company had only five DUKW plus four regular trucks.
David
http://testofbattle.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1394
According to Leland Ness and Steve Zaloga's Red Army Handbook, Special Purpose Motorized Battalions were formed after May 1944 to take full advantage of the Lend-lease American DUKW amphibious trucks being delivered. Typical battalion organization was a HQ company, 2 line truck companies, a mortar company, pioneer company, and a maintenance company. Each line truck company had three platoons of three sections each. Each section has 3 DUKW. The mortar company had the same number of DUKW as a line company (27), but the pioneer company had only five DUKW plus four regular trucks.
David
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
David
Sounds good and I think in this case you are right that we are more likely to be looking at DUKW rather than Sea-jeeps which might be more likely in a Rifle Corps. Presumably this was for immediate river crossings, especially to carry guns across.
Regards lorries, it is interesting from the top posts that a Infantry Battalion gets a Company of 50 lorries (as given in the account of the 69 Army), then an Auto Battalion (circa 150 lorries) presumably would be given to a Regiment/Brigade, so the reference above is to a Battalion of 41 Auto Regt.
With a Front having lorries at both Army level (and we know that these were mainly used for supply during offensives) and Front level, it would appear that the lorries for these forward detachments came from the Front Auto Park, typically 4 Regiments of 4 Battalions. A Front had 8 Armies and 2 Tank Armies and so would need to form 20 Forward Detachments (2 each), to lead the Tank Armies and to maintain contact between the Combined Arms Armies and the operational forces of the Tank Corps/Armies as they sped off into the 'blue yonder'.
The Mech Brigades had their own stock of vehicles as did the various artillery units operating with the Tank Armies but from this we can see that the entire Front Auto Park could be deployed solely to provide trucks for the 16 Forward Detachments of Combined Arms Armies. With the Army level trucks on supply missions, this is a good illustration of the level and distribution of vehicles across a Front. The Tank Armies were reasonably self sufficient for vehicles.
Sounds good and I think in this case you are right that we are more likely to be looking at DUKW rather than Sea-jeeps which might be more likely in a Rifle Corps. Presumably this was for immediate river crossings, especially to carry guns across.
Regards lorries, it is interesting from the top posts that a Infantry Battalion gets a Company of 50 lorries (as given in the account of the 69 Army), then an Auto Battalion (circa 150 lorries) presumably would be given to a Regiment/Brigade, so the reference above is to a Battalion of 41 Auto Regt.
With a Front having lorries at both Army level (and we know that these were mainly used for supply during offensives) and Front level, it would appear that the lorries for these forward detachments came from the Front Auto Park, typically 4 Regiments of 4 Battalions. A Front had 8 Armies and 2 Tank Armies and so would need to form 20 Forward Detachments (2 each), to lead the Tank Armies and to maintain contact between the Combined Arms Armies and the operational forces of the Tank Corps/Armies as they sped off into the 'blue yonder'.
The Mech Brigades had their own stock of vehicles as did the various artillery units operating with the Tank Armies but from this we can see that the entire Front Auto Park could be deployed solely to provide trucks for the 16 Forward Detachments of Combined Arms Armies. With the Army level trucks on supply missions, this is a good illustration of the level and distribution of vehicles across a Front. The Tank Armies were reasonably self sufficient for vehicles.
- Der Alte Fritz
- Member
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 22:43
- Location: Kent United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
Last edited by Der Alte Fritz on 22 Mar 2014, 09:24, edited 1 time in total.
- Jeff Leach
- Host - Archive section
- Posts: 1433
- Joined: 19 Jan 2010, 10:08
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: Forward Detachments 1943-45
The new picture contains a number of errors:
corrections
126 Guards Mortar Battalion
198 Light Artillery Brigade
2/18 Engineer Brigade
41 Mortar Battalion
1/24 AA Battalion and after that Sapper Battalion
1/28 AT Battalion
not sure which of the AA units should be AAA.
Note these are what the unit names mean, if the symbols give more information - I don't know but it should change the name of the unit.
corrections
126 Guards Mortar Battalion
198 Light Artillery Brigade
2/18 Engineer Brigade
41 Mortar Battalion
1/24 AA Battalion and after that Sapper Battalion
1/28 AT Battalion
not sure which of the AA units should be AAA.
Note these are what the unit names mean, if the symbols give more information - I don't know but it should change the name of the unit.