Size of Red Army divisions

[Imad]

Hello

I was going through Churchill's monumental History of the Second World War and came across a puzzling statement. He says that Red Army divisions were one third the size of their British and American counterparts. IIRC Soviet Rifle Divisions averaged around 7,000 men. By Churchill's calculations then British and US divisions would have at least 21,000 men, an astoundingly high number.

Any input on this?

[Cult Icon]

The size of their rifle divisions ranged dramatically during the war. In stalingrad there were "divisions" with several hundred men and the pre-war divisions were the largest (xx,xxx).

[Art]

Haven't you posted the same question earlier:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=112693
Regarding the question: the authorized strength of the US infantry division by the VE day was 14+ thousand men, British infantry division (IIRC) - 18 thousand. Soviet rifle divisions were maintained far below authorized level and averaged 5-6 thousand men in 1943-45. So approximately the ratio is true, probably 1:2,5 is more correct.
Actually Churchill probably discussed a divisional slice, which is a completely different thing. One need an exact quote to be sure.

[Russ Schulke]

Cult Icon ?

Soviet Divisions formed during the Stalingrad battle with a few hundred men? NO
Soviet Divisions that fought down to a few hundred men at the Stalingrad battle? TRUE

On 22 June 1941 the Red Army had 103 divisions in the western military districts, of which 70 were organized according to peace-time TO&E 04/100 with 10-thousand bayonet strength (actual number of rifles 7,818), but brought up to the 12-thousand strength (TO&E 04/400), with another six at the 11-thousand strength. Another 78 rifle divisions in the interior military districts were organized according to peace-time TO&E 04/120 6-thousand (5,864) bayonet strength (actual number of rifles 3,685). The wartime organization of the RKKA rifle division was 14-thousand (14,483) with 10,420 rifles, but only 20 western border divisions had been brought up to this establishment when the war begun.

Here a great example from 131 Rifle Division during the retreat back to and early street fighting phase from the Stalingrad battle:

The 131 Rifle Division had an SHTAT (TO&E) organizational strength of 13533 and reported on September 1, 1942 that its combat strength was 2797.
On September 9, 1942 it reported 2740.
On September 13, 1942 it reported 1695. *German push into Kuporosnoye - Southern Stalingrad
On September 17, 1942 it reported 1406.
On September 20, 1942 it reported 839.
On September 25, 1942 it reported 374.


On September 9, 1942 the 131 Rifle Division also reported the following:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
482 Rifle Regiment had 333 personal (9.8% of full strength)
593 Rifle Regiment had 113 personal (3.3% of full strength)
743 Rifle Regiment had 47 personal (1.4% of full strength)

A full strength Rifle Regiment [SHTAT 04/201 (TO&E)] was 3380 personnel.

Russ

http://www.fireonthevolga.com

[Carl Schwamberger]

...
Actually Churchill probably discussed a divisional slice, which is a completely different thing. One need an exact quote to be sure.

Churchill was probablly drunk, and improvising.

[Gary Kennedy]

There was an interesting thread a while back on the development of the Red Army Rifle Division. As a very quick comparison Joslen's Order of Battle and George Forty's US Army Handbook give the following summary totals for British and US Inf Divs.

Br Inf Div, 1939 - 13,863 all ranks
Br Inf Div, 1941 - 17,298 all ranks
Br Inf Div, 1944 - 18,347 all ranks

I have added up in the past using the unit War Establishment tables, and always get a different figure to those in Joslen, but not by much.

US Inf Div, 1942 - 15,514 all ranks
US Inf Div, 1943 - 14,253 all ranks
US Inf Div, 1945 - 14,037 all ranks

A series of amendments to US Tables of Organization stripped a few personnel out of various Div units during 1944, and while I haven't done the workings out I seem to recall those are largely reflected in the 1945 total.

On the other side of the coin, it's difficult to work out what a 'standard' German Inf Div was supposed to be in terms of manpower, as most of the 1941-42 era organisation tables are lost, and there were various combinations of units within Inf Divs. One figure from the 1945 US Army Technical Manual is of 17,200 for an 'old type' Inf Div. The late war formations tended to a more standardised approach, but there was still lots of room for variation. 1944-45 figures for German Divs are found as -

Type 44 Div - 12,772
Volks Gren Div - 10,506
Type 45 Div - 11,909

The Red Army Handbook includes a table on the overall changes to Soviet Rifle Divs between 1939-45.

Rifle Div, 1941 - 14,483
Rifle Div, 1942 - 12,725
Rifle Div, 1942 - 9435
Rifle Div, 1945 - 11,706

It's been a long time since I looked at the figures, hopefully I've identified the 'standard' formation totals. As mentioned in the thread there were a lot of 'shortened' types of organisation used, and also Guards Divs would be a little larger.

These are just the authorised figures, and actual strengths for formations in the field would of course be lower, sometimes greatly so.

Gary

[steverodgers801]

There is the toe, but sized varied based on if it was a guards unit or not, was it heading into combat or just finished, location and mission among other factors.