*Transport ships of USSR in 1941-1945 - any info!!

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Postby BIGpanzer » 16 Feb 2006 01:08

Dear Marty!
Thanks a lot for the info! I will try to answer you in details tomorrow, I could find some info you are interested in.

I also found some additional info about ex-Spanish "Neva" we discussed shortly above. Here it is:
USSR used 5 ex-Spanish liners (of different types, I have info about all of them) which could breake through sea blockade from Spain to USSR in spring-summer 1937 with women and children of Republican Spain. All liners were reequipped for the use by Soviet Navy to prevent their possible further capture at foreign ports and return back to Franco Spain.
"Essequibo" was built in 1914 at Belfast "Workman, Clark & Co." shipyard for the Atlantic routes (13300 t, 142.3m, two steam engines 5800 hp total, 14.7 knots, range 3026 miles, crew 347 men).
It was renamed as "Neva" in USSR and reequipped/repaired by Sevastopol Ordzhonikidze Shipyard No.221 in 1937-1941 as training ship-floating barracks with the possibility to use it as submarine mother ship by Black Sea Navy. When German-Soviet war began in June 1941 the ship was given to the 1st submarine brigade (3rd division of submarines of "Shch"-type) in Feodosia (5 July 1941). "Neva" was equipped with additional workshops, compressors, battery charges in Feodosia. In September 1941 all submarines were removed from Feodosia to Tuapse because of danger of German capture of Feodosia. "Neva" moved from Sevastopol to Tuapse on September, 27th with the workshops, cargos and equipment for submarines. The ship had all necessary equipment as submarine mother ship for the repair od damaged submarines.

On 24 March 1942 Tuapse naval base was attacked by German dive bombers. Four 500-kg bombs exploded near "Neva" simultaneously, and one 250-kg bomb pierced the deck and exploded in the officers' mess. The crew tried to fight a strong fire and to prevent lurch of the ship with the help of two port fire trucks and towboat SP-16. Old steamer had obsolete construction which made the rescue operations very hard. In two hours the nose of "Neva" bottomed, but the crew continued to fight a fire in the stern and could right a vessel in three hours. Next day the rescue squad of Tuapse naval base began to raise the ship. In 12 days the ship was raised and it moved under its own power to Batumi for repair (mainly with the help of the own equipment). "Neva" was also equipped with 3x76mm AA guns, 6x45mm AA guns, 4x12.7mm AA MGs and 4x7.62mm MGs and painted in camouflage colour.
Since the beginning of 1943 "Neva" was used as submarine mother ship for the eight submarines of the 2nd submarine division in Batumi.
Since September 1946 "Neva" was used as training ship again because the new submarine mother ship "Bug" (ex-Riomanian "Constanta") was given to 2nd submarine division.
In 1956 "Neva" made navigation from Sevastopol to Kronshtadt (Baltic Sea) with navy cadets, in 1957 "Neva" made navigation to Far East and was used as floating barracks there till 1970s when it was scrapped in Japan.

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Postby BIGpanzer » 16 Feb 2006 11:39

Dido wrote:
I am also looking for information on the fate of the quartet VOLOGDA, VJATKA, VLADIVOSTOK and VORONEZH.
All were built in 1930 by Cant. Riunti dell Adriatico, Monfalcone and at least VORONEZH survived the war to undertake a refit at Wismar in the mid-50's.
Any clues?


As Marty wrote those four ships were built in 1930-1931 and all (except "Vladivostok", which ran aground in 1932) survived the war.

Those passenger ships were bought by USSR in the beginning of 1930s and were mobilized from SGMP (North State Sea Route) after the beginning of war and reequipped as hospital ships between June-October 1941 for use by North Sea Navy.

Specifications: 2062 t full displacement, 72x10.6m, 108+60 passengers, 524 t of cargos, 957 hp steam engine, 12 knots, 2000 miles, 44 men crew.

"Voronezh" was used as hospital ship (GS-1) during 1941-1945. It was the first ship in the series, was built in Danzig in 1930. Another three was built by Italian Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico as the same project.
http://www.sea.infoflot.ru/photo/1/27.jpg

"Vologda" was used as military transport in North convoys - for example, I found a mention in my sources that "Vologda" with two escorting minesweepers made the navigation from Indiga to Iokanga (Barents Sea) in the beginning of December 1944. Another source mentions that "Vologda" was used as hospital ship during the whole WWII, but I believe that info is not correct as the ship was used as hospital ship (GS-3) only in 1941.

"Vyatka" was used as hospital ship (GS-2) in 1941-1942, later - as transport ship in North convoys as Marty mentioned. For example, in autumn 1944 "Vyatka" made several dangerous navigations under German bombs from Arkhangelsk to Solovki Islands, usually escorting by destroyer and submarine.
20.01.1945 the ship was used in convoy KP-1 Murmansk to Liinahamari together with Norwegian ship "Idefiord" and escorting ships: Soviet three destroyers, two minesweepers, five big anti-submarine boats, four small anti-submarine boats, four torpedo boats and four Norwegian ships (corvette and three minesweepers). A very large escort for two ships 8O. During that navigation German submarine could damage Soviet destroyer, which reached Liinahamari with the help of minesweeper.
"Vyatka" transported Norwegian troops (came to Soviet Murmansk from UK in November 1944) from Murmansk to Norway in the end of 1944-beginning of 1945.

Dido wrote:
I am looking for photos of the SVIR, later ALEKSANDR MOZHAISKY in her soviet years but with no luck yet. Any ideas where to search in the web?


"Svir" was built in Netherlands in 1919 by De Shelde as "Patria". Specifications: 14500 t full displacement, 152 x 17.4 m, 366 passengers + 1632 t of cargos, 2x2576 hp, 14.8 knots, 5300 miles, 158 men crew. USSR received the ship as WWII reparations and used it at Far Eastern routes after WWII. I don't have its photos in Soviet service.

PS. I am more interested in Soviet-built transport ships of WWII period at the moment as it is quite hard to find correct specifications and good photos of them.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 16 Feb 2006 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby BIGpanzer » 16 Feb 2006 18:44

mjbollinger wrote:
In 1927 the Soviets purchased the recently-built 4,156 GRT freighter KARIN from Germany, renaming it KALININ. I couldn't figure this out until yesterday when I can across a newspaper article from 1927 describing how the Soviets purchased it as a model for the design of a new class of ships they were going to build. Does anyone know which class of ships this was.
The other ship acquired in 1927 was MILTONSTAR, a reefer. I wonder if that was also acquired as a prototype for a new class of reefers. Has anyone heard about that?


As for "Kalinin" - I could find the following info: it was built in July 1925 as "Karin" (F. Schichau, Germany) and was bought in 1927 by USSR. Sinve 1929 the ship was used by Soviet Black Sea Steamship Company (ChGMP). In 1941-1942 - military transport. 21.04.1942 "Kalinin" was attacked by German dive bombers during the unloading of wounded soldiers at Novorossiysk port, one bomb pierced the deck and ship sank. In 7 days it was raised and in 40 days completely repaired in Tuapse port. After that it was transferred to Baltic Sea, probably. In October 1944 "Kalinin" was transferred back to Black Sea after the liberation of Odessa port from the Germans/Romanians and used there till 1952. No further info.
I don't have any info that Soviets planned to use this model for their native production. The type of the ship - cargo diesel ship (4156 brt)

"Miltonstar" was built in UK in 1914 as "Brodhurst", renamed as "Miltonstar" in 1920. The ship was bought by USSR and used at Far Eastern routes since 1927 under the name "Dnepr", scrapped in 1970s (1972?). I know also that USSR had training ship "Dnepr", which was used for military cargo transportation during WWII from Odessa port (Black Sea), but I don't know was that ship ex-"Miltonstar" or another type of ship.

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Postby BIGpanzer » 16 Feb 2006 19:15

As for the photo of Soviet-built refrigerator ship "Rion" (your post from February, 7th). Thanks a lot - a very interesting photo of "Rion" as military transport for Lend-Lease cargos transportation. Cargo booms lowered, additional topside appeared astern, also the ship was armed with light AA guns, probably. Compare with this picture: http://www.techmol.narod.ru/TM/IST_SER/1976/s11.jpg

As for the photos of Soviet-built cargo ships of "Tsiurupa"-type. Thanks a lot for their photos at least in Spanish service ("Tsiurupa" was captured by Nationalist Spanish cruiser "Almirante Cervera" in October 1938 in Mediterranean and was renamed as "Castillo Villafranca", in 1950 as "Castillo Aulencia"). "Skvortsov-Stepanov" was captured by Nationalist Spanish cruiser "Canaris" in May 1938 in Mediterranean and was renamed as "Castillo Maqueda".
Because USSR supported Republican Spain not very officially, Soviets couldn`t arm the transport ships with artillery, and, of course, couldn`t send cruisers and destroyers for their defence in Mediterranean. Unarmed transport ships had no enough speed to avoid the contacts with heavy cruisers, destroyers and submarines of Spanish Navy. Nevertheless, such accidents caused great diplomatic scandals as ALL Soviet ships were captured and sunk by Spanish nationalists during their way back to USSR (so they already had no ammunition and volunteers on board), also their crewmembers were tortured at Spanish prisons.


The photo of damaged "Nogin" of the same type (as you know the ship was sunk by two German bombs near Feodosia during the Soviet landing operation, 5 January 1942 and was raised/repaired in 1944) is also very interesting. You can see two 45mm AA guns on the bow.

The photo of "Chapaev" of the same type is really especially interesting as different sources give completely differ info. Some - that "Chapaev" was completed in 1941 by Mariupol Shipyard just before the German-Soviet War and began to participate in military transport and landing operations immediately, another - that it was not finished even in 1946. I don't know exactly but me seems very strange that unfinished ship (if so) was not exploded by Soviet engineers in 1941 to prevent its capture by Germans, also Germans could finish it as the good military transport or also exploded it in 1944 before Soviet offensive.

The photo of "Lepse" of the same type - I know that link ( http://www.bellona.no/en/about_bellona/33320.html ) about using "Lepse" as auxiliary ship for transporting the nuclear fuel in 1960s-1990s and I already mentioned it here. Almost finished "Lepse" was sunk at the Kherson Shipyard harbor by its crew to prevent the capture by Germans in August 1941. In 1945 it was raised and reequipped.

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Postby BIGpanzer » 16 Feb 2006 23:39

Marty!
Do you have additional info (names of all of them at least) about Soviet-built inshore motor cargo schooners of "Pioneer"-type (1960 t), 17 were built in 1928-1935 (see my post from the August, 6th with the photo). Black Sea Navy used those schooners quite successfully as armed mine-sweepers (because of small keel depth) and landing ships (because of the same reason + they were reequipped with bow ramp). Only two or three were sank by German bombers in 1941.

Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer

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Pioner Class

Postby mjbollinger » 17 Feb 2006 03:47

Another confusing class of ships. My data has six ships built by Sevastopol Marine Works: Pioner, Zemlyak, Batrak (Traktorist), Rabotnik, Sudkom and Mestkom. I also have eight ships built by States Shipyard "Andre Marti" #198 (Nilkolaev): Serp, Molot, Delegat, Raikomvod, Ayan, Rot-Front, Sovietski Krym, Gidzhiga

Points of confusion include:

1. There are references to other ships in this class named Volga and Don -- but I have never been able to confirm these.

2. Was Sovietski Krym originally ordered as Spartakovets? Or was Spartakovets a different ship. Was Sovietskii Krym in fact even a Pioner ("road schooner") class ship or was it one of the Gornyak series of coal ships.

If Volga, Don and Spartakovets are separate ships, this is how you get to 17. But I cannot confirm these ships.

Any guidance in this would be appreciated.


Here is what I have on each ship:



AYAN
1932 Launched as AYAN 11.32
1935 Completed as AYAN (USSR)
1937 AYAN (DGMP)
1939 AYAN (TF) mobilized as minelayer 14.08.39
1960 Deleted LRS

DELEGAT
1931 Completed as DELEGAT (STF-AGK)
1934 DELEGAT (AGMP) 15.03.34
1941 DELEGAT (ChF) mobilized 22.06.41
1941 T-507 (ChF) accepted as minesweeper 17.07.41
1941 Bombed at pier in Kerch 27.10.41; all killed
1948 Wreck refloated and transferred to Glavvtorchermetu

GIZHIGA
1932 Completed as GIZHIGA (STF-DGK)
1935 GIZHIGA (DGMP) 03.35
1939 Converted to minelayer started 25.08.39
1939 GIZHIGA (TF) accepted in roster 03.11.39
1945 Kept as minelayer
1960 Deleted LRS

MESTKOM
1929 Laid down as MESTKOM 31.10.29
1930 Launched as MESTKOM 26.02.30
1930 Completed as MESTKOM (STF-AGK) 12.10.30
1934 MESTKOM (AGMP) 15.03.34
1939 MESTKOM (ChF) conversion begun as minesweeper 29.10.39
1940 MESTKOM (ChF) accepted in roster 29.01.40
1940 MESTKOM (AGMP) demobilized 03.11.40
1941 T-506 (ChF) mobilized as minesweeper 29.06.41
1942 MESTKOM (ChABU) demobilized for technical issues 15.05.42
1960 Deleted LRS

MOLOT
1927 Laid down as MOLOT
1928 Completed as MOLOT (STF-ChGK)
1932 MOLOT (STF-DGK)
1935 MOLOT (DGMP) 03.35
1939 MOLOT (NaGMP)
1945 MOLOT (SaGMP) 27.10.45
1949 MOLOT (DGMP)
1961 Deleted LRS

PIONER
1926 Laid down as PIONER 27.11.26
1925 Ordered as PIONEER 14.11.25
1928 Launched as PIONER 16.06.28
1929 Completed as PIONER (STF-ChGK) 01.11.29
1934 PIONER (AGMP) 15.03.34
1939 PIONER (ChF) conversion begun to minesweeper 30.10.39
1940 T-481 (ChF) accepted as minesweeper 29.01.40
1940 PIONEER (AGMP) demobilized 23.11.40
1941 T-481 (ChF) remobilized as minesweeper 22.06.41
1944 PIONER (ChABU) demobilized 23.09.44
1945 PIONER (ChGMP)
1965 Removed from service

RABOTNIK
1927 Laid down as RABOTNIK 10.06.27
1929 Launched as RABOTNIK 11.04.29
1930 Completed as RABOTNIK (STF-AGK) 29.06.30
1934 RABOTNIK (AGMP) 15.03.34
1941 T-504 (ChF) conversion begun to minesweeper 28.06.41
1941 T-504 (ChF) accepted in roster of ChF 17.07.41
1941 Bombed between Sarych and Ai-Todor on 05.11.41

RAIKOMVOD
1931 Completed as RAIKOMVOD (STF-ChAGK)
1934 RAIKOMVOD (AGMP)
1941 RAIKOMVOD (ChF) mobilized 22.06.41
1941 T-517 (ChF) accepted as minesweeper 25.06.41
1944 RAIKOMVOD (ChABU) returned 23.09.44
1960 Removed from service

ROT-FRONT
1939 Completed as ROT-FRONT (ChGMP)
1941 Lost in air attack 04.11.41 off Kerch with 13 killed
1953 Wreck Broken up

SERP
1927 Laid down as SERP
1928 Completed as SERP (USSR)
1932 SERP (STF-DGK)
1935 SERP (DGMP) 03.35
1939 SERP (NaGMP)
194- SERP (DGMP)
1948 SERP (SaGMP)
1961 Deleted LRS

SOVIETSKII KRYM
1929 Completed as SOVIETSKII KRYM (AGMP)
1941 SOVIETSKII KRYM (ChABU) 01.07.41
1942 Scuttled
… possibly ordered as SPARTAKOVETS, or later name change
… possibly a different ship: a coaler sister ship to GORNYAK class

SUDKOM
1929 Laid down as SUDKOM 15.01.29
1929 Launched as SUDKOM 06.11.29
1930 Competed as SUDKOM (STF-AGK) 07.10.30
1934 SUDKOM (AGMP) 15.03.34
1941 SUDKOM (ChF) mobilized 22.06.41
1941 T-505 (ChF) mobilized as minesweeper 22.06.41
1951 T-505 (ChF) accepted in roster 24.06.41
1944 SUDKOM (ChABU) demobilized 23.09.44
1954 ARKADII GAIDAR (ChGMP)
1960 WIthdrawn from service

TRAKTORIST
1927 Laid down as BATRAK 10.06.27
1928 Launched as BATRAK 29.11.28
1930 Completed as BATRAK (STF-AGK) 15.05.30
1934 BATRAK (AGMP) 15.03.34
1935 RABOTNITSA (AGMP) 22.08.35
1936 TRAKTORIST (AGMP) 21.10.36
1939 TRAKTORIST (ChF) mobilized as minesweeper 29.01.39
1940 TRAKTORIST (AGMP) demobilized 10.11.40
1941 T-483 (ChF) mobilized as minesweeper 22.06.41
1942 TRAKTORIST (ChABU) demobilized for technical problems 15.05.42
1961 Broken up in USSR

ZEMLYAK
1925 Ordered as PIONEER 14.11.25
1926 Laid down as ZEMLYAK 17.11.26
1928 Launched as ZEMLYAK 26.05.28
1930 Completed as ZEMLYAK (STF-AGK) 01.10.30
1934 ZEMLYAK (AGMP) 15.03.34
1939 ZEMLYAK (ChF) mobilized as minesweeper 29.10.39
1940 ZEMLYAK (ChF) accepted in roster 29.01.40
1940 ZEMLYAK (ChGMP) demobilized 23.11.40
1941 ZEMLYAK (ChF) mobilized as minesweeper 22.06.41
1941 T-482 (ChF) accepted in roster 04.07.41
1943 Participated in landing operation at Stanichku
1944 ZEMLYAK (ChABU) demobilized 20.11.44
1966 Withdrawn from service

MB

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Correction

Postby mjbollinger » 17 Feb 2006 04:08

A entered a mistake. The ship SOVIETSKII KRYM should read

SPARTAKOVETS
1940 Completed as SPARTAKOVETS (AGMP)
1941 SOVIETSKII KRYM (ChABU) 01.07.41
1942 Scuttled

SOVIETSKII KRYM was an ex-ELPIDIFOR class ship. So was VOLGA-DON which may explain part of the confyusion.

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Another mistake

Postby mjbollinger » 17 Feb 2006 04:15

Sorry, it is late. The entry for SPARTAKOVETS should read
SPARTAKOVETS
1940 Completed as SPARTAKOVETS (AGMP)
1941 SPARTAKOVETS (ChABU) 01.07.41
1942 Bombed and sunk at Feodosiya 09.01.42

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Postby BIGpanzer » 18 Feb 2006 00:39

Hello, Marty!
Thank you again very much for the excellent info!

Marty wrote:
Another confusing class of ships. My data has six ships built by Sevastopol Marine Works: Pioner, Zemlyak, Batrak (Traktorist), Rabotnik, Sudkom and Mestkom. I also have eight ships built by States Shipyard "Andre Marti" #198 (Nilkolaev): Serp, Molot, Delegat, Raikomvod, Ayan, Rot-Front, Sovietski Krym, Gidzhiga
1. There are references to other ships in this class named Volga and Don -- but I have never been able to confirm these.
2. Was Sovietski Krym originally ordered as Spartakovets? Or was Spartakovets a different ship. Was Sovietskii Krym in fact even a Pioner ("road schooner") class ship or was it one of the Gornyak series of coal ships.


Here what I could find in my sources:
17 motor inshore cargo schooners of that type were built in 1928-1935: by Sevastopol Marine Works - 7 ships: "Pioner" (completed in 1929), "Zemlyak", "Batrak", "Rabotnik", "Sudkom", "Mestkom", "Traktorist". But I don't know exactly were "Batrak" and "Traktorist" different ships or not as "Traktorist" had also the name "Batrak" before (till 22.08.1935 - "Batrak", till 21.10.1936 "Rabotnitsa", till 29.01.1940 and 10.11.1940-29.06.1941 - "Traktorist"). By Odessa Dockyard (not by Nikolaev Shipyard....My info, probably, more correct in this case as in several Russian sources those schooners were mentioned as the first ships, built by Odessa Dockyard in Soviet time - first were "Serp" and "Molot", launched in 1927, completed in 1928) - 10 ships: "Serp", "Molot", "Delegat", "Rajkomvod", "Ayan", "Rotfront", "Spartakovets", "Gizhiga" (not "Gidzhiga"!), "Volga", "Don".

About their use during WWII as minelayers (equiped with guns, MGs, mines, distance gauge and radio direction-finders).

1. "Ayan". Really strange that some of those inshore schooners (developed for corn transportation on the Azov Sea and Black Sea) were used also in Pacific by DGMP (Soviet Far Eastern Ocean Company)
"Ayan" - 1975 t; 74x10.4x3.3 m; 2 diesels 50-GRS-6 750 hp total; 6-9 knots; 2030 miles: 77 men crew. Was built in 1935, mobilized 14.08.1939 as minelayer by Pacific Navy (armament 1x76.2mm gun, 2x45mm AA guns, 4x7.62mm AA MGs, 200 mines).

2. "Gizhiga" - was used as cargo ship by DGMP since 1937. It was also used as minelayer in Pacific during WWII. 1600 t, 74.1х10.4х3.3 m; 2 disels 50-GRS-6 750 hp total; 7.5-9 knots; 3265 miles; crew 77 men. Armament - 1x76.2mm gun + 2x45mm AA guns + 2x4x7.62mm AA MGs + 3x1x7.62mm MGs, 18 depth charges, 220 mines mod. 1912 or 138 mines mod. 1926. Accepted by Pacific Navy after reequipment into minelayer on 03.11.1939 (reequipment began 25.08.1939). "Gizhiga" was used during the war with Japan in 1945: mined Sakhalin Gulf, mined the waters near Kuril Islands, 01.07.1945 participated in Shikotan landing operation (Kuril islands) with marines aboard, 01.07.1945 mined Sovgavan harbor with 200 mines mod.1912.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/minelayers/pic/gizhiga.jpg (photo of "Gizhiga" as minelayer).

Both survived WWII, probably were given back to civil merchant navy for use as cargo schooners after WWII.

It should be noted that relatively young Soviet Pacific Navy was the smallest Soviet navy in 1930s and couldn't stand against Japanese Navy head-to-head, so reequipped from cargo ships minelayers played a very important role for the defense of Soviet Far East. Pacific Navy had more minelayers than other navies together (10 were reequipped from civil transports of different types, including relatively small "Ayan" and "Gizhiga" till 1941, 30 more from fishing and tug boats during WWII).

To be continued.................
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 18 Feb 2006 12:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Clarification: Pioner Class

Postby mjbollinger » 18 Feb 2006 01:43

I am confident only 14 PIONER class ships were made. The number 17 comes from a slight confusion. PIONER-class ships were based on the ELPIDIFOR landing craft from WWI. Three of these, never completed and still on the building ways, were reconfigured as dry cargo ships and launched at the same time as the PIONER ships. These ships were VOLGA-DON (ex ELPIDIFOR No.423), METALLIST (ex. No. 426), and SOVETSKII KRYM (ex. No. 427). Therefore, 17 ships of a similar design though technically they are of two classes.

To make matters more confusing, two other ELPIDIFOR ships were completed as tankers: VASILI FOMIN (ex. No. 418) and ALEKSANDR EMSHANOV (Ex. No.419). Both were later converted to dry cargo ships (as VALERII CHKALOV and STAKHANOVETS) but these are not generally added into the list of ships in total even though, after conversion, they resembled the other 17 ships.

ELPIDIFOR No. 422 was converted to a military tanker, but that is not part of my database.

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Postby BIGpanzer » 18 Feb 2006 02:12

Thanks, Marty!
Some sources mention that those cargo schooners of "Pioneer"-type were built by Marty Shipyard (No. 194) in Leningrad, but this is a mistake as they were only developed by engineers from that shipyard (also by Odessa shipyard engineers), but were built in Sevastopol and Odessa.

Marty wrote:
PIONER-class ships were based on the ELPIDIFOR landing craft from WWI.


Probably not. But they really look similar in some specifications (but not general design: compare deck-house & masts location for example! - http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/gunboats/pic/elpidifor_ld.jpg ) to Russian "Elpidifor"-type steam multipurpose ships, launched in 1916-1917 in Nikolaev and completed as gun boats/minesweepers/cargo ships in 1918-1922 mainly. Those cargo schooners were developed by Soviet engineers in the mid1920s especially for corn transportation. The requirements were very strict: schooners should have the same or more cargo capacity as Imperial Russian old cargo steam schooners for corn transportation on Black/Azov Seas, small keel depth for crossing shallow harbors, mechanic cargo booms/loading elevators and even enough low height for the passway under Rostov railway bridge. Also those schooners should be quite seagoing.

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ELIPIDIFOR / PIONER

Postby mjbollinger » 18 Feb 2006 03:33

BP,

Here is what Spassky -- by far the most authoritative source I have found on this topic -- writes (translation is mine):

"Small dry-cargo steamships such as PIONER ("the Azov schooners") were designed byTsBMS under E.S.Tolotsky's management. The origin of this design was based on ELPIDIFOR laid down in Nikolaev before the revolution and completed in the same place in various versions from 1918-1929....

In 1928-1933 at southern factories were constructed 14 such ships. PIONER, ZEMLYAK, RABOTNIK, BATRAK (later TRAKTORIST), MESTKOM and SUDKOM were constructed by shipbuilders of Sevastopol, and MOLOT, SERP, RAIKOMVOD, DELEGAT, AYAN, GIZHIGA, SPARTAKOVETS and ROT-FRONT were constructed at the Odessa factory of A.Marti."

MB

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Postby BIGpanzer » 18 Feb 2006 12:56

Dear Marty!
I don't like to dispute with you as I almost always believe to your very-very knowledgable info and sources. But I believe that "Pioneer"-type cargo schooners were mostly another project than "Elpidifor"-type multipurpose ships, but of some similar specifications. Both projects were developed for different purposes. But, of course, engineers of "Pioneer"-type schooners knew very well about "Elpidifor"s (which were used also on Azov Sea and were completed just before the development of "Pioneer"s started) and probably took some advantages of its construction (small keel depth of the hull, for example). The ships were quite similar but absolutely not identical, also "Pioneer"s were developed as original differ projects in Leningrad and Odessa in the mid1920s.
Anyway almost all types of cargo schooners/ships for relatively small and shoal Azov Sea had similar shape and design of hulls, for example the design of "Elpidifors" was inspired by the design of Russian Azov steam schooners, which had small keel depth, good cargo capacity and seagoing ability :) . As you know "Elpidifor"s were developed during WWI as landing ships mainly and "Pioneer"s were used quite successful as landing ships during WWII.

Marty wrote:
"Small dry-cargo steamships such as PIONER ("the Azov schooners") were designed byTsBMS under E.S.Tolotsky's management.

What does TsBMS mean?
Inshore motor cargo schooners of "Pioner" ("Pioneer")-type were not steamships, but diesel ships (2 x 375 hp diesels 50-GRS-6). Interesting, that "Elpidifor"s had two steam engines (double- or triplex-expansion) of 375 hp each.


Regards, BP

PS. I will post soon some info about the fate of "Pioneer"s and "Elpidifor"s during WWII. In most parts the info is very similar to yours, but I found some additional details about their use during WWII.

mjbollinger
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Pioner

Postby mjbollinger » 18 Feb 2006 13:45

Thanks, BP. Yes, they were diesels not steamships. My translation mistake. I appreciate the correction.

I think are in agreement. The PIONER class ships were a separate class, influenced by the earlier class of ELPIDIFOR ships. That is why I only list 14 in the PIONER series and I consider the other three cargo ships (five in total, including tankers) modified ELPIDIFOR ships to be a different class.

TsBMS = Центральное Бюро По Морскому Судостроению (Central Bureau of Sea Shipbuilding)

Any more more information is appreciated. I'm especially interested in information on METALLIST.

MB

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BIGpanzer
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Postby BIGpanzer » 18 Feb 2006 14:11

Mine-sweepers of Black Sea Navy (ChF), reequipped from the cargo schooners of "Pioner"-type (were used by civil AGMP - Azov State Shipping Company in 1930s):
1960-2010 t; 73.8x10.4x3.2 m; 2x375hp diesels; 2 screws; 9.5-10 knots; 3500 miles; 52 men crew.

1. T-481 (till 29.01.1940 and 23.11.1940-29.06.1941 - "Pioner"). Laid down in autumn 1927, launched in 1928. Completed 30.10.1929 as cargo schooner. The conversion to mine-sweeper started 29.10.1939. 29.01.1940 accepted by navy. 23.11.1940 demobilized and unarmed, returned back to AGMP. 22.06.1941 mobilized again, was used as mine-sweeper since 30.07.1941 by ChF (hull No. 31).
Since February 1943 was based together with mobilized "Rajkomvod", "Zemlyak" and "Sudkom" in Gelendzhik naval base (division of mine-sweepers), participated in dangerous navigations to Novorossiysk with marines, armament and ammunition on-board. 23.09.1944 partly unarmed and reclassified as transport (not demobilized till the end of WWII!).
Armament: 2х76.2mm, 1х 45mm, 2х7.62mm MGs (since 1943 - 2х76.2mm, 2х45mm, 1х20mm, 2х7.62mm MGs; since 1944 - 2х76.2mm, 3х45mm, 1х20mm, 1х4 + 2х1х12.7mm MGs; since October 1944 - 2х45mm, 1х20mm, 2х12.7mm MGs), 2 mine-sweeps (Schulz-type and kite), 120 mines.

2. T-482 (till 29.01.1940 and 10.11.1940-29.06.1941 - "Zemlyak"). Laid down in autumn 1927, launched in 1928. Completed 01.01.1930 as cargo schooner. 29.10.1939-23.11.1940 - mobilized as mine-sweeper. 22.06.1941 mobilized again, was used as mine-sweeper since 04.07.1941 by ChF (hull No. 32).
09.02.1943 participated in successful and heroic Stanichka (Novorossiysk) landing operation together with two serial navy mine-sweepers and seven patrol boats (they transported 4184 marines of 83rd brigade of marines) under the very strong German artillery fire.
Between 05-25.02.1943 "Zemlyak" transported marines, equipment and armament for the landing troops every night from Gelendzhik to Novorossiysk, taking back the wounded marines in those extremelly dangerous navigations (made 20 navigations during 19 days).
23.09.1944 partly unarmed and 20.11.1944 reclassified as transport (not demobilized till the end of WWII!).
Armament: 2х76.2mm, 1х 45mm, 2х7.62mm MGs (since 1943 - 2х76.2mm, 2х45mm, 1х20mm, 2х7.62mm MGs; since 1944 - 2х76.2mm, 3х45mm, 1х20mm, 1х4 + 2х1х12.7mm MGs; since October 1944 - 2х45mm, 1х20mm, 2х12.7mm MGs), 2 mine-sweeps (Schulz-type and kite), 120 mines.

To be continued..............
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 18 Feb 2006 23:40, edited 1 time in total.


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