Soviet denial of the non-aggression pact of 1939

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Kunikov
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#166

Post by Kunikov » 12 Oct 2005, 18:31

StaHit wrote:

I suppose you agree also that if there were no MRP and if Hitler attacked Poland, there would have been two front war in Europe for Germany.
No, I don't.
The crux of the matter - if Stalin didn't think Hitler would wage two front war, why did he wanted to sign MRP? MRP in fact assured Hitler that there wouldn't be two front war for Germany.
He signed the pact because it was his only option left after the Western Allies turned their back on him.

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#167

Post by StaHit » 12 Oct 2005, 18:37

Kunikov wrote:He signed the pact because it was his only option left after the Western Allies turned their back on him.
Aha, so you think Stalin made MRP because he couldn't achieve agreement because of the West fault? That West didn't want to make a deal in 1939 with Stalin?

Yes or no? Again I'm asking it in order to make sure I understood you correctly.


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#168

Post by Kunikov » 12 Oct 2005, 18:39

StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:He signed the pact because it was his only option left after the Western Allies turned their back on him.
Aha, so you think Stalin made MRP because he couldn't achieve agreement because of the West fault? That West didn't want to make a deal in 1939 with Stalin?

Yes or no? Also I'm asking it in order to make sure I understood you correctly.
The West wanted nothing to do with Stalin, the Munich agreement proved they couldn't be trusted, so Stalin made a deal with the other side.

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#169

Post by StaHit » 12 Oct 2005, 18:42

Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:He signed the pact because it was his only option left after the Western Allies turned their back on him.
Aha, so you think Stalin made MRP because he couldn't achieve agreement because of the West fault? That West didn't want to make a deal in 1939 with Stalin?

Yes or no? Also I'm asking it in order to make sure I understood you correctly.
The West wanted nothing to do with Stalin, the Munich agreement proved they couldn't be trusted, so Stalin made a deal with the other side.

So you are making a conclusion that Stalin decided to reach a deal with Nazis after Munich in 1938?

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#170

Post by Kunikov » 12 Oct 2005, 18:43

StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:He signed the pact because it was his only option left after the Western Allies turned their back on him.
Aha, so you think Stalin made MRP because he couldn't achieve agreement because of the West fault? That West didn't want to make a deal in 1939 with Stalin?

Yes or no? Also I'm asking it in order to make sure I understood you correctly.
The West wanted nothing to do with Stalin, the Munich agreement proved they couldn't be trusted, so Stalin made a deal with the other side.

So you are making a conclusion that Stalin decided to reach a deal with Nazis after Munich in 1938?
Yes.

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#171

Post by StaHit » 12 Oct 2005, 18:50

Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:He signed the pact because it was his only option left after the Western Allies turned their back on him.
Aha, so you think Stalin made MRP because he couldn't achieve agreement because of the West fault? That West didn't want to make a deal in 1939 with Stalin?

Yes or no? Also I'm asking it in order to make sure I understood you correctly.
The West wanted nothing to do with Stalin, the Munich agreement proved they couldn't be trusted, so Stalin made a deal with the other side.

So you are making a conclusion that Stalin decided to reach a deal with Nazis after Munich in 1938?
Yes.

In this case, Kunikov, there is no point to us to continue discussion about 1939 anymore, because you would agree with my conclusion that negotiations with West in 1939 was only a smokescreen for Stalin, because he wanted to reach the deal with Nazis from the end of 1938.

I guess we need to start a thread on Munich.

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#172

Post by Kunikov » 12 Oct 2005, 18:53

StaHit wrote:

In this case, Kunikov, there is no point to us to continue discussion about 1939 anymore, because you would agree with my conclusion that negotiations with West in 1939 was only a smokescreen for Stalin, because he wanted to reach the deal with Nazis from the end of 1938.

I guess we need to start a thread on Munich.
Not necessarily, Stalin would have done what he thought best, his belief in the Western powers and their ideas vis-a-vis Hitler were changing after all that they had allowed Hitler to do, but he might still have held out hope for something to happen, I can't be sure of his ideas throughout the two years, I can only speculate and give my opinion. If you are talking about the mission which Vooroshilov was involved in with the British, then Stalin might definitely have been serious, other negotiatons I'm not familiar with.

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#173

Post by StaHit » 12 Oct 2005, 19:00

Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:

In this case, Kunikov, there is no point to us to continue discussion about 1939 anymore, because you would agree with my conclusion that negotiations with West in 1939 was only a smokescreen for Stalin, because he wanted to reach the deal with Nazis from the end of 1938.

I guess we need to start a thread on Munich.
Not necessarily, Stalin would have done what he thought best, his belief in the Western powers and their ideas vis-a-vis Hitler were changing after all that they had allowed Hitler to do, but he might still have held out hope for something to happen, I can't be sure of his ideas throughout the two years, I can only speculate and give my opinion. If you are talking about the mission which Vooroshilov was involved in with the British, then Stalin might definitely have been serious, other negotiatons I'm not familiar with.

You see, I can prove that Stalin wanted to make a deal ONLY with Nazis in 1939 and yes, I'm talking not only about negotiations with Voroshilov, because negotiations with Nazis started in spring of 1939 already and it was Molotov, not Voroshilov, who did the main negotiating both with West and Nazis.

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#174

Post by Kunikov » 12 Oct 2005, 19:01

StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:

In this case, Kunikov, there is no point to us to continue discussion about 1939 anymore, because you would agree with my conclusion that negotiations with West in 1939 was only a smokescreen for Stalin, because he wanted to reach the deal with Nazis from the end of 1938.

I guess we need to start a thread on Munich.
Not necessarily, Stalin would have done what he thought best, his belief in the Western powers and their ideas vis-a-vis Hitler were changing after all that they had allowed Hitler to do, but he might still have held out hope for something to happen, I can't be sure of his ideas throughout the two years, I can only speculate and give my opinion. If you are talking about the mission which Vooroshilov was involved in with the British, then Stalin might definitely have been serious, other negotiatons I'm not familiar with.
You see, I can prove that Stalin wanted to make a deal ONLY with Nazis in 1939 and yes, I'm talking not only about negotiations with Voroshilov, because negotiations with Nazis started in spring of 1939 already and it was Molotov, not Voroshilov, who did the main negotiating both with West and Nazis.
Go ahead and prove it, and don't use Suvorov as a source.

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#175

Post by StaHit » 12 Oct 2005, 19:04

Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
StaHit wrote:

In this case, Kunikov, there is no point to us to continue discussion about 1939 anymore, because you would agree with my conclusion that negotiations with West in 1939 was only a smokescreen for Stalin, because he wanted to reach the deal with Nazis from the end of 1938.

I guess we need to start a thread on Munich.
Not necessarily, Stalin would have done what he thought best, his belief in the Western powers and their ideas vis-a-vis Hitler were changing after all that they had allowed Hitler to do, but he might still have held out hope for something to happen, I can't be sure of his ideas throughout the two years, I can only speculate and give my opinion. If you are talking about the mission which Vooroshilov was involved in with the British, then Stalin might definitely have been serious, other negotiatons I'm not familiar with.
You see, I can prove that Stalin wanted to make a deal ONLY with Nazis in 1939 and yes, I'm talking not only about negotiations with Voroshilov, because negotiations with Nazis started in spring of 1939 already and it was Molotov, not Voroshilov, who did the main negotiating both with West and Nazis.
Go ahead and prove it, and don't use Suvorov as a source.
Yes I will do it, as I said, after New Year and I promise I won't use any single line from Suvorov's screeds :wink:

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#176

Post by StaHit » 13 Oct 2005, 20:18

Karman wrote:USSR btw offered to UK and France to sign a treaty proposing joint guarantees to Eastern European countries on April 17, 1939
Let’s look what Soviets were doing in Berlin the very same day, on April 17:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns001.htm
Frames 231609-231610, serial 485

Memorandum by the State Secretary in the German Foreign Office (Weizsäcker)

St. S. Nr. 339
BERLIN, April 17, 1939.

The Russian Ambassador visited me today-for the first time since he took up his post here [1]-for a conversation on practical matters. He dwelt at length on a subject which he said was of particular interest to him: namely, the fulfillment of certain contracts for war materiel by the Skoda Works. Although the items involved are manifestly rather insignificant, the Ambassador regarded the fulfillment of the contracts as a test, to determine whether, in accordance with a recent statement by Director Wiehl [2] to him, we were really willing to cultivate and expand our economic relations with Russia. The matter of these supply contracts is being looked into elsewhere.
Toward the end of the discussion, I casually mentioned to the Ambassador that even granted goodwill on our part, a favorable atmosphere for the delivery of war materials to Soviet Russia was not exactly being created at present by reports of a Russian-British-French air pact and the like. Herr Merekalov seized on these words to take up political matters. He inquired as to the opinion here regarding the present situation in Central Europe. When I told him that as far as I knew Germany was the only country not participating in the present saber-rattling in Europe, he asked me about our relations with Poland and about the alleged military clashes on the German-Polish frontier. After I had denied the latter and made some rather restrained comments on German-Polish relations, the Russian asked me frankly [unverblümt] what I thought of German-Russian relations.
I replied to Herr Merekalov that, as everybody knew, we had always had the desire for mutually satisfactory commercial relations with Russia. It had appeared to me that the Russian press lately was not fully participating in the anti-German tone of the American and some

[1] Ambassador Merekalov had presented his credentials on June 5, 1938.
[2] Head of the Commercial Policy Division of the German Foreign Office.

Page 2

of the English papers. As to the German press, Herr Merekalov could form his own opinion, since he surely followed it very closely.
The Ambassador thereupon stated approximately as follows:
Russian policy had always moved in a straight line. Ideological differences of opinion had hardly influenced the Russian-Italian relationship, and they did not have to prove a stumbling block with regard to Germany either. Soviet Russia had not exploited the present friction between Germany and the Western democracies against us, nor did she desire to do so. There exists for Russia no reason why she should not live with us on a normal footing. And from normal, the relations might become better and better.
With this remark, to which the Russian had led the conversation, Herr Merekalov ended the interview. He intends to go to Moscow in the next few days for a visit.

WEIZSÄCKER

You see how double-faced Soviet policy was – the same day they publicly offered to West to sign a treaty which in fact was directed against Germany, Merekalov got an instruction to go to Germans (even before Soviets got answer from the West!) and to tell them confidentially that SU really wants to have very good relations with them. How could it be that offer to the West was sincere? What could have been worth Soviet promise to keep guarantees to the East in that case if West accepted the proposal?

I will remind also how Stalin behaved before the proposal of April 17, when Western country actually declared guarantees in 1939:

http://www.genocid.lt/GRTD/Konferencijo ... oachim.htm
As soon as rumours about Romania as the next victim of Hitler’s aggression started to spread in Whitehall, the Foreign Office also planned to issue guarantees to this country of Eastern Europe. Although soon after these signs appeared to be ungrounded, it was the first time when the British Government rested its interest on Eastern Europe. When news on the threat to Poland followed in due course, Chamberlain pronounced the well-acclaimed sovereignty guarantee to Poland (it should be also noted that London did not guarantee Poland its territorial integrity, which meant that the policy of appeasement had not been finally renounced by that time). This unilateral statement included elements of a catastrophe: how the existence of independent Poland could be guaranteed when at least none of the powerful neighbours had a common border with the country. In short, without the support of Moscow, the step of Chamberlain was a risky maneuver which obliged the country without possessing what could threaten Hitler. Due to the isolation of the Soviet Union that has just been briefed about and that occurred after the Munich deal, Stalin would not have been inclined to do anything but share the British guarantees to Warsaw if such a request had reached Moscow. In that way the Soviet Union would have received other freedom of action, i.e. it would have become “the judge to predetermine the fate of Europe”. One of the scenes on the decision making on the eve of 31 March 1939 manifests that Stalin considered such a possibility and made active efforts that London gave unilateral guarantees: in the afternoon British Foreign Officer Lord Halifax received Soviet envoy Ivan Maisky and informed him about the intentions of Chamberlain. The Officer also asked about the stance of the Soviet Union regarding the issue of guarantees and whether the Prime Minister could announce about Moscow’s support to such a British policy in the afternoon session of the parliament. Although diplomatic strata and the English press expected such a step to be made, Maisky announced that he had to receive instructions from Moscow. However, [Maisky said], since peaceful policy of the Soviet Union caused no doubts to anybody, the Prime Minister could announce about the Russian support. And so Chamberlain did. The following day TASS denied this statement and noted that the Soviet politicians had no obligations.
Last edited by StaHit on 17 Oct 2005, 17:39, edited 1 time in total.

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#177

Post by Sven-Eric » 13 Oct 2005, 20:32

Well, as late as 4 August 1939, the German Moscow ambassador believed that the Soviets first option was an agreement with the Western powers.

Regards,
Sven-Eric

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#178

Post by Karman » 14 Oct 2005, 08:42

StaHit wrote: So you are making a conclusion that Stalin decided to reach a deal with Nazis after Munich in 1938?
In this case, Kunikov, there is no point to us to continue discussion about 1939 anymore, because you would agree with my conclusion that negotiations with West in 1939 was only a smokescreen for Stalin, because he wanted to reach the deal with Nazis from the end of 1938.

I guess we need to start a thread on Munich.[/quote]

You are twisting the logic. Stalin agreed to make a deal with Hitler only after Munic. That said if Hitler had offered him a deal before Munich Stalin would not have agreed.
You have to provide evidence that:
1. Stalin's negotiations with the West were a smokescreen.
2. Stalin wanted to make a deal only with Nazis after Munic.

Your words about the Soviet ambidexter politics are ridiculous given that Western Powers made a deal with Hitler in Munic behind Soviets' back and circumventing Stalin.

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#179

Post by Kunikov » 14 Oct 2005, 18:48

Since I've started to do some research into this, mainly from the first two chapters of the book I'm reading now "From Peace to War" I'll make a post here addressing a few issues already brought up, etc.

First of all I don't agree with the remark that "...Hitler sought to use this standstill agreement with the USSR to clear the way for a war against Poland without the danger of war on two fronts." The agreement of course being the non-aggression pact. But, in retrospect, we see that when Hitler invaded Poland, he was already within a few days in a fight on two fronts. His army against Poland was one front, and the fact that France and England declared war on him signifies another front. Whether France and England would attack or wouldn't is a moot point, the danger was now clear. If Hitler wanted to avoid a 'two front' war he should have made a deal with France if attacking Poland, and with Poland if attacking France, making a deal with the Soviet Union does not guarantee one front, it simply guaranteed that the Soviet Union wouldn't go against Germany and join her forces with Polands on the one and same Front Germany was already engaged.
Now, moving on to motivations on the part of the Soviet Union, mainly this revolves around Chapter 2 in the above mentioned book entitled "Soviet Foreign Policy and the Origins of the Hitler-Stalin Pact" by Ingeborg Fleischhauer. I'll be quoting various passages:
"After the power balance in Eastern Europe had been tipped by the German-Polish nonaggression pact (26 January 1934), Stalin, via initiatives by the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs, M. M. Litvinov, first of all tried to persuade Germany not to commit herself on the Baltic states issue by means of bilateral treaties, and then attempted to persuade the group of states to commit themselves using the multilateral vision of an 'Eastern Locarno'. This effort failed. Soviet foreign policy drew the necessary conclusions from this and, in 1935, changed tact and aimed for an alliance system with the Western Powers, including any neighbouring states."
As one can see, since 1935 the Soviet Union was trying to come to terms with the Western Powers about how Germany should be controlled.
"Following the sobering experience of the German Wehrmacht's unopposed advance to the east (the Anschluss of Austria) and the weakness of the existing alliance system with France and Czechoslovakia (the Sudetenland crisis), Stalin's main concern switched to the Ukraine and the Baltic region. The actions of France and Britain at the Munich Conference, as well as in their bilateral relations with Germany in the coming months, were a series of deep disappointments for both the Soviet government and Soviet diplomacy, and Russia's suspicious anti-imperialist attitude intensified accordingly." The four options at this point left for the Soviet Union were as follows:
"(a) continuing their efforts to create a fremework of collective security with the WEstern Powers using the League of Nations, in spite of their negative experiences with both;
(b) a policy of self-isolation and of building up the country's power in anticipation of war;
(c) a policy of alliances with the neighbouring states; or
(d) an arrangement with the enemy.

All four options were insufficient for an effective defensive policy at that time. Whereas option (a) was difficult to realise owing to Britain's appeasement policy, and thus offered the necessary security only in the longer term, the other three options for various reasons had to seem only temporary solutions. Option (b) seemed to offer only limited chances of success, if only because of the double weight of the Janapese activities and the constantly growing danger of a two-front war under the ausieces of the anti-Comintern pact. Option (c), in the short term, was meeting with resistance from most of the countries in question. Finally, option (d) seemed to the Soviet government to be highly unthinkable, not only for ideological and political reasons 0 the Russians were also aware of the fact that the aggressor would only enter into such an arrangement for short-term tactical reasons. Hence this option could only be used under certain conditions, i.e. as a last resport."

As will be seen, all options aside from the last would be exhausted and Stalin would make a choice he thought was best for his country's security and interests.

"The Western reaction to the German occupation of Czechoslovakia, including the British guarnatee for Poland, increased the USSR's importance at a stroke - the Western Powers turned to Stalin as a matter of course for the first time. In itself this did not mean an increase in security - Stalin (here again doubtless a greater realist than his British counterparts) did not think negotiations alon woul dhave a deterrent effect on Hitler, all the less so since his war plan for Poland ('Plan White') had been fixed between 3 April and 11 April 1939." Thus the pact had no affect on the German invasion plans.

"In Warsaw Potemkin's proposal for a Polish-Soviet assitance pact was rejected (10 May 1939). The Polish ambassador in Msocow, W. Grzybowski, explicity confirmed this a day later in a conversation with the newly appointed Foreign Affairs Commissar, V. Molotov. Thus the third option of the Soviet security concept failed due to the most important neighbouring state."

"There is reason to believe that the original list of four foreign policy options for the Soviet government had been reduced to option (d) under the preconditions determining its political and strategic thinking by about mid-August, i.e. eleven days prior to the intended start of the German attack on Poland (26 August!). Following the failure of the People's Commissar for Defence, Marshal Kliment Voroshilov, acting head of the Soviet military mission, to achieve the resolution of the 'principal question' (14 August), the right to send his troops through Poland and Romania, there was only one course left open - to take the bull by the horns."

"A new situation arose during the last third of July 1939 - the Three-Power tanks had got bogged down, and Britain seemed to want conciliatory negotations with Germany; thus option (a) seemed to disappear once more. On the Mongolian-Manchurian front the border skirmishes between Soviet and Japanese troops soon became outright war; Britain seemed to make it worse by rendering assistance to Japan in the Arita-Craigie Agreement. Hence not only option (b) was endangered - there was even the suspicion that the Germans, British, and Japanese were forming a community of interests against the USSR. The danger signs of 'imperialist encirclement' started to light up. In addition, Germany had drawn some of Russia's neighbours closer to herself (nonaggression pacts with Estonia and Latvia on June 7, visits by Halder and Canaris to Estonia and Finland), while Britain refused to put any pressure upon other neighbouring countries (Poland and Romania) to persuade them to comply with future Soviet wishes or demands. Thus option (c) threatened to disappear for good."

"Therefore the second, positive directive Molotov send to Astachov on behalf of Stalin on August 11 1939 planned a formal rather than a substantial acceptance of the German offers of talks. It admitted that the Soviets were interested in an exchange of views, but wanted to make the necessary arrangements beforehand Stalin, had however, brought the Politburo's attention to the possibility, on this same 11 August (the very same day on which Berlin finally thought it had failed in its quest for the 'Russian green light' for good), of taking up political negotiations with Germany. But it was not until the Soviet government's 'princeipal question' asked of the British and French governments (14 August 1939) had gone unanswered that Stalin really utilised this possibility. On 15 August Molotov expressly accepted the German proposals for the first time during his conversation with Ambassador Schulenburg."

This passage was something that I found very interesting:
"However (as proof of the Soviet struggle for legality), we should nto overlook the fact that the additional 'special protocol', according to the Soviet draft of the nonaggression treaty of August 19, was at least to be mentioned in the postscript of the published text and described as an integral part of the treaty, in which specific foreign policy matters of mutual interest were to be dealt with. At the same time Molotov requested a German version of the postscript. He described the contents as a 'most serious matter' and the Soviet government's attitude to the treaties as 'very serious' - 'it keeps the promises it makes and it expects the same of its treaty partners'. These words made it very clear how worried the Soviets were about the imponderables of a secret additional agreement. The condition that this postscript be included in the nonaggression treaty (an attempt by the Soviets to meet the Germans haflway) did not comply with German wishes, and so it was dropped during the negotiations in the Kremlin (on the night of 23/24 August), possibly as a result of seeing the German draft protocol, which had only just arrived."

In conclusion:
"The outer framework for this decision is sufficiently clear:
(I) the final refusal of Poland (and thus the final failure of option [c] as the formal reason, with undoubtedly strong emotiona side-effects;
(II) insufficient commitment on the part of the French and especially the British, including their lack of pressure upon Poland and Romania (and hence the failure of option [a]_ as the material reason; and
(III) increased military planning requirements for the first Soviet major offensive against Japan (20 August) together with the need for goods and technology (in the sense of option ) as well as for temporary lessening of pressure upon the western borders by means of the German nonaggression agreement."

This last quote I liked as well:
"In the words of the knowledgeable French ambassador in Moscow (and, from November 1938, in Berlin), RObert Coulondre, they had 'pushed Stalin towards Hitler' from the spring of 1939 'after they had pushed Hitler towards Stalin in Munich'."

So, what conclusions can be drawn? Well, the options open to the Soviet Union were TRIED by the Soviet Union with no success, mainly no thanks to England and France. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a last resort by a dictator who could forsee no other means of securing his frontiers and countries security. It did not influence Hitler's decision to go to war with Poland, nor did it eliminate a 'two front war.'

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#180

Post by StaHit » 15 Oct 2005, 13:00

Sven-Eric wrote:Well, as late as 4 August 1939, the German Moscow ambassador believed that the Soviets first option was an agreement with the Western powers.

Regards,
Sven-Eric

That may be truth but it's not an argument when we are talking about Soviet intentions.

I may also say - as late as June 1941 Stalin believed Hitler first option wasn't to attack SU. Is it an argument about real Hitler's intentions? No it is an argument about that Hitler did a quite good job in desinformation sphere, but nothing else.

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