What kind of uniform is this?
Uniform
This is an SA officer; he is wearing the traditional SA "brownshirt" uniform.
Because Hitler wears a Blutorden ribbon in this photograph you can tell that it was taken no earlier than 1934, since that was the year the "Blood Order" was created. By that time, the SA had converted to wearing more "military" looking four-pocketed tunics (Dienströcke) for everyday duty and the style of uniform worn in this photograph, including a uniform shirt (Diensthemd) instead of the tunic was designated the "Traditionsanzug" (= 'traditional uniform') or "Großer Dienstanzug" (= roughly translated 'full dress uniform') and put on for ceremonial occasions.
By the way, this so-called Braunhemd (= brown shirt), although officially designated a shirt, was actually a short blouse, with a real shirt worn underneath. (note how the white cuffs are showing in the pic)
Hope this helps.
Because Hitler wears a Blutorden ribbon in this photograph you can tell that it was taken no earlier than 1934, since that was the year the "Blood Order" was created. By that time, the SA had converted to wearing more "military" looking four-pocketed tunics (Dienströcke) for everyday duty and the style of uniform worn in this photograph, including a uniform shirt (Diensthemd) instead of the tunic was designated the "Traditionsanzug" (= 'traditional uniform') or "Großer Dienstanzug" (= roughly translated 'full dress uniform') and put on for ceremonial occasions.
By the way, this so-called Braunhemd (= brown shirt), although officially designated a shirt, was actually a short blouse, with a real shirt worn underneath. (note how the white cuffs are showing in the pic)
Hope this helps.
Hitler's decorations
Exactly; it's the Golden Party Badge. (Below the Iron Cross is his Wound Badge in Black from WW I.)
Uniform
Well, as for the lack of Tresse on his cap: I noticed that, but I guess it's just due to the fact he wore his "classical" uniform without any changes to comply to the new regulations introduced in 1933.
As for the other unusual aspects of this uniform: Very good questions, and I'm afraid I can't really answer them. (I don't have all that much reference on SA uniforms, being more interested in SS uniforms) No idea on the aiguillette at all; but his golden insignia might have something to do with his status as the former SA Stabschef, although this is just speculation on my part. (I noticed he's been identified as Franz Felix Pfeffer von Salomon in the other thread.)
As for the lack of a brassard: Believe it or not, although this is by far the most obvious aspect of this uniform, for some reason it didn't catch my eye - I just didn't notice it!! Strange. Don't have an explanation for this either, but if you allow to digress: Sometimes SS uniforms were worn without the brassard as well, and that's something that has puzzled me for qute a while. For example, in Robin Lumsden's "Himmler's Black Order" is a picture of Sepp Dietrich in his black uniform without the brassard; as the reason for this, Lumsden states that it "was a short-term expedient adopted during this period to set the personnel of the infant Leibstandarte apart from the mass of the Allgemeine-SS." So far, so good, but on the other hand, Heinz Höhne in his "Order Of The Death's Head" mentions that the right to wear the brassard could be temporarily withdrawn as a disciplinary measure; Andrew Mollo quotes this passage in his "Uniforms Of the SS", too. Somehow this doesn't make sense: The same uniform distinction for an "elite" unit and for punished SS-members?
Sorry I couldn't really help, but let's see if somebody else can answer those questions, I'd be really interested in those answers as well
As for the other unusual aspects of this uniform: Very good questions, and I'm afraid I can't really answer them. (I don't have all that much reference on SA uniforms, being more interested in SS uniforms) No idea on the aiguillette at all; but his golden insignia might have something to do with his status as the former SA Stabschef, although this is just speculation on my part. (I noticed he's been identified as Franz Felix Pfeffer von Salomon in the other thread.)
As for the lack of a brassard: Believe it or not, although this is by far the most obvious aspect of this uniform, for some reason it didn't catch my eye - I just didn't notice it!! Strange. Don't have an explanation for this either, but if you allow to digress: Sometimes SS uniforms were worn without the brassard as well, and that's something that has puzzled me for qute a while. For example, in Robin Lumsden's "Himmler's Black Order" is a picture of Sepp Dietrich in his black uniform without the brassard; as the reason for this, Lumsden states that it "was a short-term expedient adopted during this period to set the personnel of the infant Leibstandarte apart from the mass of the Allgemeine-SS." So far, so good, but on the other hand, Heinz Höhne in his "Order Of The Death's Head" mentions that the right to wear the brassard could be temporarily withdrawn as a disciplinary measure; Andrew Mollo quotes this passage in his "Uniforms Of the SS", too. Somehow this doesn't make sense: The same uniform distinction for an "elite" unit and for punished SS-members?
Sorry I couldn't really help, but let's see if somebody else can answer those questions, I'd be really interested in those answers as well
I think what Franz is wearing is a SA Staf leader kepi, for people who're leading a department within the OSAF.
It couldn't be a Stabchef kepi, because at the time this picture was take, he wasn't the leader anymore.
I see no other reason for the lack of tresse.
it also a fact that Gruppenfuhers who didn't commanded a Gruppe, were not authorized to wear tresse on their kepi, but why Hermann Goring is wearing tresse?
These high-placed persons were very often playing with the rules.
Laurens
It couldn't be a Stabchef kepi, because at the time this picture was take, he wasn't the leader anymore.
I see no other reason for the lack of tresse.
it also a fact that Gruppenfuhers who didn't commanded a Gruppe, were not authorized to wear tresse on their kepi, but why Hermann Goring is wearing tresse?
These high-placed persons were very often playing with the rules.
Laurens
Well, I've realized he's wearing an old SA uniform, as HLP said. In the early years higher SA officers wore a double golden oak leave in their collar tabs and no tresse on the kepi. But why is he wearing this old uniform, while the others wear up-to-date ones? Didn't have enough money to buy a new one? 
I've seen photos of SS and SA members not wearing arm bands (Roehm, Dietrich, Goering, von Salomon). Of course it wasn't punishment (who could punish Roehm? Or Goering?), but then what? One more mystery of the Third Reich.
I've seen photos of SS and SA members not wearing arm bands (Roehm, Dietrich, Goering, von Salomon). Of course it wasn't punishment (who could punish Roehm? Or Goering?), but then what? One more mystery of the Third Reich.
Re: Uniform
The red and golden insignia is only for the SA Chief of Staff.HPL2008 wrote: but his golden insignia might have something to do with his status as the former SA Stabschef, although this is just speculation on my part. (I noticed he's been identified as Franz Felix Pfeffer von Salomon in the other thread.)
In the picture von Salomon was still SA-Stabchef,but with the SA-Gruppenführer rank insignia.
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "
-
Mark Costa
- Member
- Posts: 2775
- Joined: 26 Jul 2002, 18:41
- Location: USA
Re: What kind of uniform is this?
This photo was taken at Nuremberg Rallies during the the late 1930's. The full photo shows Lutze as the Stabchef. Pfeiffer at this time was still an honorary SA leader and he wears his old pre-1931 uniform when he was the old Stabchef.
He never received an upgrade to a higher honorary rank in the "new" rank structure of 1931. Hence his wearing of the old uniform. As he was still in "favor" one during the 1930's one still sees him at events such as the rallies. He fell from favor during the war years and arrested.
Attached is a photo also taken at a late 1930's rally in which he does wear the armband. Matter of choice I guess.
Mark Costa
He never received an upgrade to a higher honorary rank in the "new" rank structure of 1931. Hence his wearing of the old uniform. As he was still in "favor" one during the 1930's one still sees him at events such as the rallies. He fell from favor during the war years and arrested.
Attached is a photo also taken at a late 1930's rally in which he does wear the armband. Matter of choice I guess.
Mark Costa
- Attachments
-
- Franz_von_Pfeffer_von_Salomon.jpg (101.47 KiB) Viewed 1661 times
Re: What kind of uniform is this?
I'm confused.
This picture are dated Berlin 1930.
I think is of the same event,there are differences in the von Salomon belt buckle,the presence of the same "strange"aiguillette.
Now visible the rank is SA-Oberfüher.
Regards !
Photo:www.corbis.com
This picture are dated Berlin 1930.
I think is of the same event,there are differences in the von Salomon belt buckle,the presence of the same "strange"aiguillette.
Now visible the rank is SA-Oberfüher.
Regards !
- 1930berlin22930celebrantj9.jpg (83.08 KiB) Viewed 1608 times
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "
-
timkoningskelp
- Member
- Posts: 87
- Joined: 28 Jan 2009, 02:39
Re: What kind of uniform is this?
I'm no expert on photographs, so perhaps this is not a very bright statement, but couldn't this photograph be originally in black and white? It would explain the golden oakleaves on the collarpatch (a mistake by the man who coloured the picture: should be silver like the man in the background) and would also explain the strange colour of the aiguillettes (could be faded gold of silver). Still does not explain why he is wearing the aiguillette on his left arm, nor the lack of tresse and armband, but could be an explaination for the other questions.
Just my two cents. As I said I'm no expert!
Just my two cents. As I said I'm no expert!
-
Mark Costa
- Member
- Posts: 2775
- Joined: 26 Jul 2002, 18:41
- Location: USA
Re: What kind of uniform is this?
The first photo at the top of this thread was taken in the late 1930's and is an original color photo. I have attached the complete photo below. The gold collar tabs are correct for this rank. Pfeiffer was head of the SA at the time of the 1930 bW photo shown above. These tabs are NOT Oberfuhrer tabs in the same sense of the later structure. In 1930 these tabs were worn by the high leaders of the SA with GOLD representing the highest rank which Pfeiffer held at that time. In the color photo one must remember that Pfeiffer was RETIRED and did not hold current rank in the SA. But we was still considered in "favor" with Hitler and allowed to wear his old uniform for the annual gathering at Nuremberg. The wearing of the aigulette and lack of armband was probably just a choice on his part.
Mark Costa
Mark Costa
- Attachments
-
- 6.jpg (24.59 KiB) Viewed 1554 times
Re: What kind of uniform is this?
This could be the von Salomon's collar patch with red background.
- EarlySARanks.jpg (9.88 KiB) Viewed 1491 times
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "