German officer captured

[Alejandro_]

I was going through a bunch of photos and this one caught my eye. I was wondering if someone could tell me the rank of the officer wearing glasses. The same with the ribbon bars, although they are hard to identify. He wears an old style cap. Photo was taken in Kiev (1944).



http://foto-history.livejournal.com/4274946.html#cutid1 (high res version)

[von thoma]

I would say that is a Major....
The ribbon bar it's, 1914 Iron Cross 2nd Class with 1939 spange,1939 War Merit Cross 2nd Class with swords
and the third, possibly ( ? ) the Order of the Red Eagle with oak leaves.

[Ian Hulley]

The ribbon bar is Iron Cross 1914 with 1939 bar, Cross of Honour ('Hindenburg Cross') with swords, probably some sort of WW1 Service medal ?

Looks to be a 1914 EK I, silver wound badge and War Service Cross 1st Class with Swords with ribbons for the War Service Cross II class and Ost Medaille on the button hole.

Ian

[cnicoll123]

On close inspection, the 'unidentified' medal on the ribbon bar, could well be a long-service medal.

The collar-tabs definitely suggest NCO++ to say the least. Obviously nothing too high up, e.g Major, Fieldmarshal or General e.t.c

I'm a tad unsure on this, though the collar tabs look similar to those worn by Artillery/Panzer units, due to the close-spacing of the individual 'rank bars'.
In addition, it's 'Crusher' 'Side-cap' and 'M43' caps all being worn, no helmets. If you also notice, behind the 'main officer' that 'soldier' looks to be wearing a panzer-wrap style tunic. To say the least, the combination of 'crusher' caps and a 'panzer-wrap' would incline me to say a potential Panzer-division officer or senior NCO.

On a really long stretch, i could say Hauptman+, as generally haup+ would wear crusher/field caps. (not 100% though)

[John G.]

On close inspection, the 'unidentified' medal on the ribbon bar, could well be a long-service medal.

The collar-tabs definitely suggest NCO++ to say the least. Obviously nothing too high up, e.g Major, Fieldmarshal or General e.t.c

I'm a tad unsure on this, though the collar tabs look similar to those worn by Artillery/Panzer units, due to the close-spacing of the individual 'rank bars'.
In addition, it's 'Crusher' 'Side-cap' and 'M43' caps all being worn, no helmets. If you also notice, behind the 'main officer' that 'soldier' looks to be wearing a panzer-wrap style tunic. To say the least, the combination of 'crusher' caps and a 'panzer-wrap' would incline me to say a potential Panzer-division officer or senior NCO.

On a really long stretch, i could say Hauptman+, as generally haup+ would wear crusher/field caps. (not 100% though)

Look again!, either we're looking at two differant pictures or, well, I beg to differ. everyone in the photo appears to be officer POWs (some have no insignia-) except maybe "way in the back"...., tabs and boards all look officer "to me", and "his" ( the offz. in question) shoulder boards are definately "Majors" (can't see any pips... thru Col. possibly). The "close spacing" on the collar tabs is nonsense, (there's NO special spacing on Litzen between branches), as is the "over-statement" about being "Panzer Division" related..... I see ONLY 4 pocket tunics & overcoats, NOT a Wrapper in sight. Helmets were removed from POWs once out of the immediate combat zones (normally). Last ribbon could be nearly "anything"....(minor importance)...

You certianly have the right to see what you "see"....but I want to "correct the record"...von Thoma & Ian had it correct in the 1st place.
John G.

[cnicoll123]

Hey John,

Apologies for the 'nonsense' which i posted, i guess i'll have to touch up on some of my identification methods. However, please be assured i wasn't making the overall statement of 'this is definite' or 'this is right'. Simply made it clear i was unsure, and used what i've known to a certain extent with the uniform-trends of units and divisions e.t.c.

I take your judgement with accredited assurance, and apologise for any inconvenience.

[John G.]

Connor,
You needn't apologize to me....we're all here to share and to learn. I know I can be alittle "blunt"....mostly it's for brevity and my "New England Yankee" straight talk.... It's never personal and I mean or take no offense. I'm here to share my collecting experiance and knowledge....for what it's worth. You're contributions are welcome...but "do brush up" and keep speculation to a minimum, as the information we "impart" can have an actual effect

Noone is always right...including me! but we should "strive for perfection"
John G.

[cnicoll123]

No problem John,

Greatly appreciate your advice, and any help/direction is welcome from myself as always.

[Alejandro_]

Many thanks for the information. I was expecting the prisoner to be a high(er) ranking officer because he is in front of the column. I assume the Soviets would put him there for propaganda purposes.

[John G.]

"Major thru Colonel" isn't too shabby for an Offizier POW.... all could be Regimental or Company Commanders (or higher level Command if the higher ups had been KIA or WIA)..... there were Lt. Col./Colonels commanding Divisions occassionally (Temp. or "dire circumstance, usually)...

Guy looks like a "rear-eschelon" type....but obvious not "far enough back".....
John G.

[Ian Hulley]

Guy looks like a "rear-eschelon" type....but obvious not "far enough back".....
John G.

Looking his girth I don't think he spent much time climbing in and out of tanks Probably as you say a Divisional level officer ... signals, veterinary, medical etc ... no WWII combat badges either.

Ian

[Alejandro_]

A couple of questions:

What was the criterion for the awards location in the ribbon bar? most important on the left? earliest obtained in the left?

I see ONLY 4 pocket tunics & overcoats, NOT a Wrapper in sight.

What is the significance of this?

[Ian Hulley]

What was the criterion for the awards location in the ribbon bar? most important on the left? earliest obtained in the left?

Bravery/combat awards were worn on the left with precidence given to the Iron Cross 2nd Class (awarded for bravery in the face of the enemy), the War Service Cross (KVK with/without swords)the 'Hindenburg' or Honour Cross 1914-18 which was a commemorative award given in several guises .. with swords to veterans who saw active service, without swords to veterans who didn't see active service and without swords and paintd black with a reversed colour ribbon to widows and dependants of those who fell during 'The Great War'. Then 'House' awards of the German states, Long Service medals and then awards such as the 'Flower Wars' (i.e. the Anschluss of Austria, the Sudetenland and the Memel area of Lithuania) The Ost Medaille, West Wall medal, Luftschutz, Social Welfare etc and generally at the end any foreign awards such as the Rumanian 'Crusade Against Bolshevism' medals or similar.

I see ONLY 4 pocket tunics & overcoats, NOT a Wrapper in sight.

What is the significance of this?

Wrap-around tunics aka 'Wrappers' or 'Wraps' were worn in black by armoured and armoured reconaisance units and in field-grey by armoured artillery and tank-destroyer units ... hence the significant lack of them on view.

Ian

[Dwight Pruitt]

If you look really closely, there is a single assault gun wrapper without collar tabs worn by the bald gentleman over the shoulder of our portly POW subject. I have to admit that I cheated by looking at other photos in the series.