Question on SS Collar Tabs

[WehrmachtSS]

Looking at various SS rank collar tabs up to SS-Obersturmbannführer, are the diamonds supposed to be uneven? Some photos I have seen have the diamond insignia really uneven while others seemed to be perfectly placed. Was it supposed to be that way? Or was it due to forced labor being made to sew it resulting in an "uneven" insignia? The SS, for how terrible they were in their actions really had a very interesting uniform/insignia (being produced by Hugo Boss would be an explanation).

Thanks in advance

[von thoma]

An example of SS-Obersturmbannführer with uneven pips.


Photo:http://forum.axishistory.com/

[John G.]

SS Officers collar tabs weren't made by "slave labor", those with metal pips came "blank" and the tailor would apply the pips and tresse as required by the officer.... spacing was set by regulation and normally, especially when done by experianced hands, is "perfect".... when "field done", sometimes it is less than perfect but normally not "way off".... often when the pips appear "off", it's because they have "rotated", making the points not all aline...

I don't see any "uneven pips" in the photo Von Thoma posted.... the alinement appears "correct" to me?
John G.

[WehrmachtSS]

Ok what about the Eichmann portrait picture? It seems they are a little "off" , especially the 2 pips farthest from the stripe but that could be because of the stripe making the rest of the tab smaller. I will keep looking for better examples because I have seen some extremely uneven ones, even at ranks of Sturmbannfuhrer which doesn't have the stripe. Are the pips supposed to look like even squares or are they supposed to be tilted?

[WehrmachtSS]

SS Officers collar tabs weren't made by "slave labor", those with metal pips came "blank" and the tailor would apply the pips and tresse as required by the officer.... spacing was set by regulation and normally, especially when done by experianced hands, is "perfect".... when "field done", sometimes it is less than perfect but normally not "way off".... often when the pips appear "off", it's because they have "rotated", making the points not all aline...

I don't see any "uneven pips" in the photo Von Thoma posted.... the alinement appears "correct" to me?
John G.

And about the slave labor part I had read it from a few places on possible work done by slave labor in this article for example.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/aug/15/news/ls-22533

It is from 1997 but it did allude to the SS uniforms made by Hugo Boss made by using possible slave labor. And also Wikipedia (not the greatest of sources but usually pretty accurate mentioned 150 "forced" laborers used to make the uniforms. With companies like BMW proven to use forced/slave labor on parts I don't find it out of the realm of possibility that Boss did the same thing.

[John G.]

They really aren't "off" in the Eichmann photo, either.... the collar & tab have a slight curve when "worn" which give the optical effect of being "slightly off" (the "lay of the collar")....the metal pips can easily "rotate" in place, especially after "long service...so they can also be alittle off looking... but you're making a mountian out of a mole hill... normally spacing and placement are "perfect", done by an experianced tailor.

As far as slave labor/etc.....most HAND EMBROIDERY was done by German female hand-craftsman, most was done prewar, long before Slave labor or the vast Concentration Camp/economic enterprises were a major factor.... yes, wartime insignia may have been made in the Camps but they weren't hand embroidered.

Uniforms being made by Slave Labor (or KZ inmates) is very true..., but we are talking about Collar tabs (officers, to boot!) which were made by a totally differant manurfacturing enterprise and supplier.... remember officers normally had their uniforms tailor made.... and tailors would order thier stocks through authorized RZM suppliers. Of course, there would be some exceptions....but few bullion insignia would have been camp made as they'd need proper "unterlagen" (templates) and bullion had been replaced with "bevo" once the war really got going...(pretty much)

Much "to do" about nothing....IMO.
John G.

[Ian Hulley]

SS Officers collar tabs weren't made by "slave labor", those with metal pips came "blank" and the tailor would apply the pips and tresse as required by the officer.... spacing was set by regulation and normally, especially when done by experianced hands, is "perfect".... when "field done", sometimes it is less than perfect but normally not "way off".... often when the pips appear "off", it's because they have "rotated", making the points not all aline...

I don't see any "uneven pips" in the photo Von Thoma posted.... the alinement appears "correct" to me?
John G.

And about the slave labor part I had read it from a few places on possible work done by slave labor in this article for example.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/aug/15/news/ls-22533

It is from 1997 but it did allude to the SS uniforms made by Hugo Boss made by using possible slave labor. And also Wikipedia (not the greatest of sources but usually pretty accurate mentioned 150 "forced" laborers used to make the uniforms. With companies like BMW proven to use forced/slave labor on parts I don't find it out of the realm of possibility that Boss did the same thing.

The labour force at many of these private enterprises (although captive) were more than grateful to work in a clothing factory given the alternative was often death.

SS bullion items were craftsmen made, not by slave labour but by time-served experts often with their own distinctive hand which the true experts can even pick out today.

Ian

[WehrmachtSS]

Ok after going through some more pics I think I have found one that definitely shows my inquiry... This one in question looks extremely off...


The pips on this one are extremely off and not centered at all. Is this just an outlier or a bad crafting job? Some of the pips are literally overlapping the other ones.

Source: Wikipedia

image.jpg (56.19 KiB) Viewed 1321 times

And also compared to this example (2nd pic) why do some peoples pips look like a different size/design? Is it lighting on the picture? Or the angle it was taken at?

Source: Wikipedia (example #2)

image.jpg (21.08 KiB) Viewed 1321 times

[Ian Hulley]

There are several sizes of pips found on collar tabs, the later edge-prong ones are smaller than the classic centre-pin variety for example. Christian Wirth (top photo) has the larger type in a pretty jumbled look ... would YOU want to be the one to tell him ?

Ian

[William Kramer]

Hello there,

Sometimes, when a promotion would be given a mismatched or wrong sized pip would be added, that has been seen before.

William Kramer