Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Ok, IF it has a CARD unterlagen and that unterlagen is UV- then I believe it stands a chance of being a period piece. The claim to it being pre-'33 is rubbish in my opinion for the reasons I gave you before.
Never EVER use Chuck Shyster as a point of reference for anything ... if he says it's Wednesday check your calendar, if he shakes your hand count your ribs .. the guy is a 100% definite crook, he will look you in the eye and steal the breath from your lungs. Google him, do what ever you wish but if you believe nothing else I've tried to tell you then just believe that.
Now to giving this thing a value ... realistically as an oddity maybe $150 ? The issue is convincing someone else to the extent you've convinced yourself. Understanding that Chuck Shyster is a crook ... priceless.
Cheers, Ian.
Never EVER use Chuck Shyster as a point of reference for anything ... if he says it's Wednesday check your calendar, if he shakes your hand count your ribs .. the guy is a 100% definite crook, he will look you in the eye and steal the breath from your lungs. Google him, do what ever you wish but if you believe nothing else I've tried to tell you then just believe that.
Now to giving this thing a value ... realistically as an oddity maybe $150 ? The issue is convincing someone else to the extent you've convinced yourself. Understanding that Chuck Shyster is a crook ... priceless.
Cheers, Ian.
Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Snyder's eagle does look like yours, and it might even be real, but, since he doesn't explain what the hell he means by "political officer", it's impossible to pursue a line of inquiry. An NSFO (Nationalsozialistischer Führungsoffizier) is what I'd call a political officer, but they wore standard army uniforms and insignia. Perhaps you could ask him to elaborate.
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Yeah, that should be fun ...WTW26 wrote: Perhaps you could ask him to elaborate.
B.S. shields to Maximum
Ian
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Lol... OK, well I'll ask him... Maybe his response will be a good laugh for us all.
I'm not sure what the unterlagen could be besides a card, but it's certainly stiff.. I think it's what gives the patch what rigidity it has... And it certainly creates a raised Eagle.
I'm not sure what the unterlagen could be besides a card, but it's certainly stiff.. I think it's what gives the patch what rigidity it has... And it certainly creates a raised Eagle.
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
I wasn't going to bring it up, because this was part of a Facebook closed group discussion, and those have been thoroughly blasted, but this persons Eagle was "claimed" to be the same as mine... He also did so with only the blurry photo and statements that he held the Eagle and it was assuredly the same... which is one of the reasons I was such a stickler about evidence on this forum. But it made me wonder if he was right... The guy was a political officer of a sort up until a promotion to ss-standarte 1 and Ss-vt in 34...this photo is after that... And clearly he was an obersturmbannfuhrer of a Heer unit? (collar tabs and saber).. Another person made a reference to a very rare early Heer Eagle that had a left facing head.... He wasn't sure if mine was it, but he made reference to one... Anyone Know if that's true?
The guy was absolutely sure that I would never find another person wearing my patch, and that this was it.... But I also found this guy... However, again... Can't tell even direction of head, so no idea if it's mine or not. Any idea why these guys have a different arm patch than they are "supposed" to.. (seemed that the patch was supposed to be the type with the wing points in the middle, not the top of the wing.. Like A Ss-vt design type 2)
The guy was absolutely sure that I would never find another person wearing my patch, and that this was it.... But I also found this guy... However, again... Can't tell even direction of head, so no idea if it's mine or not. Any idea why these guys have a different arm patch than they are "supposed" to.. (seemed that the patch was supposed to be the type with the wing points in the middle, not the top of the wing.. Like A Ss-vt design type 2)
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Bah.... The pics are swapped... Stupid tapatalk
- Dwight Pruitt
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
It wasn't unknown for SS-VT or even Waffen-SS troops to use Heer Hoheitsabzeichen on their sleeves instead of the SS pattern eagles. There is a very famous photo of Sepp Dietrich wearing a schirmutze with an army eagle on it. I still don't believe that your eagle matches either one of those shown. Also, Mark Costa mentions in the below thread that later in the war many officials used sleeve eagles (both Army and SS pattern) instead of armbands.Fullmetalmonkey wrote: However, again... Can't tell even direction of head, so no idea if it's mine or not. Any idea why these guys have a different arm patch than they are "supposed" to.. (seemed that the patch was supposed to be the type with the wing points in the middle, not the top of the wing.. Like A Ss-vt design type 2)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=88243
I still believe that your eagle is a 1960's era Pakistani repro due to the bullion and loose threads on reverse.
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
You could well be correct BUT the 60's fakes were usually far cruder than this and they weren't aware of dodging the UV test either back then ... WAS there even UV back then ?Dwight Pruitt wrote: I still believe that your eagle is a 1960's era Pakistani repro due to the bullion and loose threads on reverse.
The photos the Farcebook group claim to be the same as yours are standard Heer officer breast eagles ... the photos are FAR to poor to make out any head details so how they can claim to be so sure is beyond me.
Ian
Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Dwight Pruitt wrote:I still believe that your eagle is a 1960's era Pakistani repro due to the bullion and loose threads on reverse.
The better pictures convince me that Dwight is correct.... as has been everyone (including me), basically, from the start! That this eagle is a reproduction....
I'm sure you'll disagee!...I'd recommend the W.A.F. for more opinions....there are enough wantabee experts there that someone will probably "bless it" for you.... Not going to happen here!....at least not from me.
John G.
Mainemilitaria
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Ian Hulley wrote:... WAS there even UV back then ?
Ian
Sure was, late sixties/early seventies anyways...I remember I had all kinds of hippy/psychedelic posters on my bedroom wall that glowed real nice with UV..........
Larry
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
John... I'm open to listen to your ideas, but all you have said is "the pics convince me", I'm right, I'm right, I'm right... With underlines and exclamation point ..... What about the pics convinces you? .... What about the bullion? .... I don't feel that the threads are loose at all, in fact the whole thing is quite tightly sewn....... And would you please stop trying to shove me off? Almost every post of yours has been trying to make me go away instead of having a discussion... If this is the kind of treatment that is expected from moderators on this site, then I maybe I should go somewhere else.
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Ian... I also went rounds with the person about evidence and proof... A blurry pic and an assurance mean diddly to me....
Best way I could put it is, if you were an appraiser... Would you claim that and risk your whole career based on that info?.... And/or if you walked up to a garage sale and heard that... Would you buy the piece?.. The answer is no... ... And yes, a Heer breast Eagle was my best guess as well in the pic.... for the year and style, there just weren't really any other options, especially with the corroborating heer evidence of the Saber..... Which left me still wondering what mine is... Which is why I came here... To a history forum... Figured people would be keen on discussing history, but I guess there's only one or two. Thank you to those.
Best way I could put it is, if you were an appraiser... Would you claim that and risk your whole career based on that info?.... And/or if you walked up to a garage sale and heard that... Would you buy the piece?.. The answer is no... ... And yes, a Heer breast Eagle was my best guess as well in the pic.... for the year and style, there just weren't really any other options, especially with the corroborating heer evidence of the Saber..... Which left me still wondering what mine is... Which is why I came here... To a history forum... Figured people would be keen on discussing history, but I guess there's only one or two. Thank you to those.
- Dwight Pruitt
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
I'm showing my age here, but the first time I heard of the UV test for militaria was at the first MAX show in 1988 (?). There was a seminar by Tom Shutt, who at the time was a author and top tier collector of German headgear, where he first demonstrated blacklight use for detecting fakes. UV is a good test, but has many flaws- some detergents will cause a false positive and some types of cloth will lose fluorescence over time.Ian Hulley wrote: You could well be correct BUT the 60's fakes were usually far cruder than this and they weren't aware of dodging the UV test either back then ... WAS there even UV back then ?
Ian
I'm certainly no expert, but the shape of the eagle's head, the narrowness of the bullion, and the loose threads on the reverse would make me pass on this eagle.
Fullmetalmonkey, I hope I'm not jumping to conclusions, but you seem to be a fairly new collector. My advice would be to spend more money on books than artifacts for a while. We've all been stuck with fakes. I've personally been stuck with a fake full-Rohm SA and a fake "Ehre Kraft Freiheit" bayonet by one of the top names in the business. It happens.
Also, the gentleman with the saber is SS-Ostubaf. Georg Ritter v.Hengl who, at the time of the photo, was commander of SS Regiment Deutschland. He's wearing a mix-mash uniform. The cap is a pre-1935 black Allgemeine SS schirmutze, and his tunic is a gray SS-Verfugunsgstruppe type, with a Army eagle on the sleeve. The saber is probably a silver SS type. The photo is probably 1935. He was a WWI flyer and later transferred to the Heer in 1936, later becoming a General der Gebirgstruppe,
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Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
I am a beginner collector of Nazi stuff, but not collections in general.. Been collecting all sorts before this, but actually don't plan on collecting Nazi stuff... My wife would flip (though there are a dagger or two I wouldn't mind owning... A rad hewer and an SA) ... I was given this a long time ago and just finally found it in storage.... So I'm not planning in investing in anything more...
The guy seemed to say that it was taken in late 34,but never got final confirmation of post date since it was a postcard... So who knows....
In what way do you mean "narrowness of the bullion"... I'm not sure I understand... Also not sure what you mean by "loose"... All the rear threads are tight with nothing flailing or sloppy or loose...... I have also seen a lot of other pics of patches ("claimed" to be real, and not by Snyder... Various documentary sites, not just sale sites) that have much looser or sloppier rear threads.
The guy seemed to say that it was taken in late 34,but never got final confirmation of post date since it was a postcard... So who knows....
In what way do you mean "narrowness of the bullion"... I'm not sure I understand... Also not sure what you mean by "loose"... All the rear threads are tight with nothing flailing or sloppy or loose...... I have also seen a lot of other pics of patches ("claimed" to be real, and not by Snyder... Various documentary sites, not just sale sites) that have much looser or sloppier rear threads.
Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch
Fullmetalmonkey,
The reason I'm trying to "throw you off" here is because this is a "history forum".... 98% of the members here aren't collectors as much as they are historians.... there are only a few of "us" here who are serious, "long-term" collectors who can give you an learnered opinion..... you already had "just about everyone" give you theirs... including mine- from here.
I can't easily teach you what it's taken me 56 years to learn. Your lack of knowledge about the details of German insignia and what was worn, by whom, and when... just complicates the discussion.
What a Waffen SS officer worn on his sleeve, nor the "similiarities" with "Army, navy, LW, or whatever else type eagles means nothing....the only comparison would be with an eagle identical to "yours"....
The recommended forum has many advanced collectors and specialists who will gladly give thier opinions.... also their share of "idiots".... but you should get a enough information there to settle the matter one way or the other....
Things like "European bullion" from the 1930s/40s is different than modern bullion, the way it wrapped around the thread, etc., the material the "unterlangen" is made of, the skill of the embroiderer... just can't be easily explained when talking to a "layman"... BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY.... you can only compare it to this "exact" same eagle, this isn't a variation Army or SS eagle...it's distinctive headshape and direction wouldn't be accidental or by mistake....not in an original item. This would be for a particular organization and can only be compared to "matching" (i.e.: identical) examples.
About the only known 3rd Reich eagle that compares in "form" is the "Feldherrenhalle" eagle.... but there was no know bullion version made pre-1945 AFAIK.
You've had almost completely "negitive" responses here with one "maybe".... I'd take it there (WAF) for a much larger collector base...since you don't want to listen to any of us.
Good luck....
John G.
The reason I'm trying to "throw you off" here is because this is a "history forum".... 98% of the members here aren't collectors as much as they are historians.... there are only a few of "us" here who are serious, "long-term" collectors who can give you an learnered opinion..... you already had "just about everyone" give you theirs... including mine- from here.
I can't easily teach you what it's taken me 56 years to learn. Your lack of knowledge about the details of German insignia and what was worn, by whom, and when... just complicates the discussion.
What a Waffen SS officer worn on his sleeve, nor the "similiarities" with "Army, navy, LW, or whatever else type eagles means nothing....the only comparison would be with an eagle identical to "yours"....
The recommended forum has many advanced collectors and specialists who will gladly give thier opinions.... also their share of "idiots".... but you should get a enough information there to settle the matter one way or the other....
Things like "European bullion" from the 1930s/40s is different than modern bullion, the way it wrapped around the thread, etc., the material the "unterlangen" is made of, the skill of the embroiderer... just can't be easily explained when talking to a "layman"... BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY.... you can only compare it to this "exact" same eagle, this isn't a variation Army or SS eagle...it's distinctive headshape and direction wouldn't be accidental or by mistake....not in an original item. This would be for a particular organization and can only be compared to "matching" (i.e.: identical) examples.
About the only known 3rd Reich eagle that compares in "form" is the "Feldherrenhalle" eagle.... but there was no know bullion version made pre-1945 AFAIK.
You've had almost completely "negitive" responses here with one "maybe".... I'd take it there (WAF) for a much larger collector base...since you don't want to listen to any of us.
Good luck....
John G.