Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

Discussions on Axis uniforms, headgear and insignia. Hosted by John G & William Kramer.
Fullmetalmonkey
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 24 Jul 2014, 20:34

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#46

Post by Fullmetalmonkey » 31 Jul 2014, 20:15

I'm not looking to talk to collectors... I'm looking to talk to historians... Only a historian would know where it was from and when, and I would assume a historian would be much more likely to engage in a discussion about the various possibilities and why... They should also be more understanding of "evidence" and conjecture ... a collector is more likely to tell me it's a fake, not offer proof, then either lowball me or try to get me to take a hike.

The "similar" Eagles do absolutely mean something.... It gives a period and a manufacture quality to compare to.

Those bullion details and unterlagen details can certainly be explained to this "layman", as you so insultingly put it, but you never tried.... Ian did, and look what kind of great discussion we have had.

If you seriously think the only comparable Eagle is the feldherrnhalle, then you haven't done enough research.... There's plenty that match in bullion, backing, wings, style, etc....even the Heer and panzer are closer than that... Only they are facing right and don't have a red eye (possibly slightly different head shape, but closer than the feldherrnhalle)... I would put those as a lot closer to the "form" of my Eagle.

You're right, I have had almost completely negative responses.... But most just said... "I think blah, blah, blah".... Not one has really given me anything useful to go on except the name of the fake mfg company.... So instead, I move forward on the suggestions that actually help the search for info. And I ignore the egos.

I do want to listen to you, but when all you say is..." It's a fake, Go away".... I'm sorry but I'm just going to ignore that and have a discussion with the people that are actually conversing with me, giving info, and substantiating their claims.

User avatar
John G.
Host - Militaria sections
Posts: 5775
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 19:56
Location: USA

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#47

Post by John G. » 01 Aug 2014, 01:29

Fullmetalmonkey wrote:I'm not looking to talk to collectors... I'm looking to talk to historians... Only a historian would know where it was from and when, and I would assume a historian would be much more likely to engage in a discussion about the various possibilities and why... They should also be more understanding of "evidence" and conjecture ... a collector is more likely to tell me it's a fake, not offer proof, then either lowball me or try to get me to take a hike.

The "similar" Eagles do absolutely mean something.... It gives a period and a manufacture quality to compare to.

Those bullion details and unterlagen details can certainly be explained to this "layman", as you so insultingly put it, but you never tried.... Ian did, and look what kind of great discussion we have had.

If you seriously think the only comparable Eagle is the feldherrnhalle, then you haven't done enough research.... There's plenty that match in bullion, backing, wings, style, etc....even the Heer and panzer are closer than that... Only they are facing right and don't have a red eye (possibly slightly different head shape, but closer than the feldherrnhalle)... I would put those as a lot closer to the "form" of my Eagle.

You're right, I have had almost completely negative responses.... But most just said... "I think blah, blah, blah".... Not one has really given me anything useful to go on except the name of the fake mfg company.... So instead, I move forward on the suggestions that actually help the search for info. And I ignore the egos.

I do want to listen to you, but when all you say is..." It's a fake, Go away".... I'm sorry but I'm just going to ignore that and have a discussion with the people that are actually conversing with me, giving info, and substantiating their claims.
Fullmetalmonkey,
As Co-Moderator of this section, I'm afraid you do have to listen.... and if you continue to be as "bullheaded" as you are...I'll lock this thread and be done with it. Strike two in my book....

Your statements are asinine... historians know nothing about uniform details, whats original and whats not, when things were adopted, etc..... collectors eventually learn not only the artifacts, but the history associated with it. I've spent 56 years learning what I know....and while I certianly don't claim to be "all knowing".... I can hold my own with "most of them" (so called experts in this stuff).... (I say "egolessly"...!).

Your eagle is of unique style.... IF ORIGINAL. it would ONLY be for whatever orgnanization that eagle represents....NOT ARMY or SS.... the design/details of those eagles mean nothing when compared to yours (except basic manurfacture)... GET THAT THRU YOUR HEAD.... The Feldherrenhalle eagle was probably a poor example....I cited it because it's probably what the FAKER based his design on (IMO)..... however I don't wish to debate this and you no longer want my advise/wisdom...

I'll allow this to continue for the time being... but watch your additude.... you've received plenty of good information here, the "ego/additude problem" is yours, I'm afraid....
John G.


User avatar
Mark in Cleveland, Tn.
Member
Posts: 5761
Joined: 27 Jul 2004, 02:30
Location: Cleveland ,tennessee

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#48

Post by Mark in Cleveland, Tn. » 01 Aug 2014, 02:03

I am still trying to log on to the 3 Pakistani www sites. I had them all *saved* at one time,

Time to lock it up i think

Ian Hulley
Member
Posts: 2618
Joined: 07 Jan 2005, 13:00
Location: Derbyshire,UK.

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#49

Post by Ian Hulley » 01 Aug 2014, 11:08

Laurence Strong wrote:
Ian Hulley wrote:... WAS there even UV back then ? :lol:
Ian

Sure was, late sixties/early seventies anyways...I remember I had all kinds of hippy/psychedelic posters on my bedroom wall that glowed real nice with UV.......... :D


Larry
My earliest recollection of using UV was at discos in the late 70's early 80's when I and my other hot-blooded colleagues used to use it for bra-spotting :milwink: Ah, those were the days :thumbsup:

Anyway, moving on ... 4 pages in and we're still no nearer PROVING this eagle is original ... personally given the meagre possible value and even slimmer chance of finding a clear enough photo to prove it belongs to a certain organisation I'd chuck it in the 'maybes' box and be done with it.

Ian

User avatar
Dwight Pruitt
Member
Posts: 448
Joined: 26 Aug 2002, 06:53
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Contact:

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#50

Post by Dwight Pruitt » 01 Aug 2014, 18:08

Fullmetalmonkey wrote:I'm not looking to talk to collectors... I'm looking to talk to historians... Only a historian would know where it was from and when, and I would assume a historian would be much more likely to engage in a discussion about the various possibilities and why... They should also be more understanding of "evidence" and conjecture ... a collector is more likely to tell me it's a fake, not offer proof, then either lowball me or try to get me to take a hike.
You're being pretentious. I don't claim to be a historian, but I know the difference between Heer, SS and NSDAP. You do not seem able to make those distinctions. I'm not a "historian" but I know that pre-33 NSDAP breast eagles DID NOT EXIST.
The "similar" Eagles do absolutely mean something.... It gives a period and a manufacture quality to compare to.


Every single eagle that you have linked to has differed significantly from yours. Every. Single. One. You might as well link to building eagles because they have about as much relevance to this discussion as the ones you've posted here.
Those bullion details and unterlagen details can certainly be explained to this "layman", as you so insultingly put it, but you never tried.... Ian did, and look what kind of great discussion we have had.
I've given you my opinion, and given you the reasons why I believe your eagle is a reproduction. You don't agree. Great, no skin off my nose.
If you seriously think the only comparable Eagle is the feldherrnhalle, then you haven't done enough research....
It is not my responsibility to do YOUR research for YOU. Show ME photographic evidence of YOUR eagle in wear, in a PERIOD photograph and I will change my mind. You haven't. All you have done is thrown several photographs of several different organizations wearing different eagles in an attempt to link them with yours.
There's plenty that match in bullion, backing, wings, style, etc....even the Heer and panzer are closer than that... Only they are facing right and don't have a red eye (possibly slightly different head shape, but closer than the feldherrnhalle)... I would put those as a lot closer to the "form" of my Eagle.
And you're still wrong.
You're right, I have had almost completely negative responses.... But most just said... "I think blah, blah, blah".... Not one has really given me anything useful to go on except the name of the fake mfg company.... So instead, I move forward on the suggestions that actually help the search for info. And I ignore the egos.

I do want to listen to you, but when all you say is..." It's a fake, Go away".... I'm sorry but I'm just going to ignore that and have a discussion with the people that are actually conversing with me, giving info, and substantiating their claims.
No you don't. You WANT to believe that your eagle is good, despite mine and others opinion of it. I would not have it in my collection. Please have fun with your waste of bandwidth. I've given you my opinion, and said all I'm going to say on it. Good day, sir.

Fullmetalmonkey
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 24 Jul 2014, 20:34

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#51

Post by Fullmetalmonkey » 04 Aug 2014, 21:19

I never claimed to know anything.... All I claimed was to have seen the links I posted and heard the things I heard... From those and my basic understanding of manufacturing and history, I came up with the ideas that I have...the ones I linked are the CLOSEST that I have found, others are far less likely to be similar. And I did link one that I consider to be exactly the same, but you all don't care because it's on snyders....
My opinions are at least somewhat substantiated by my information..... I came here asking for help, and most of what I have gotten is pretty harsh criticism with no links, pics, info or otherwise to back it up. This came from people who also claim to have issues with people that just make claims with no evidence.

I have in no way been rude or condescending... I have not been "bullheaded" as you say...I call it as I see it... .I have presented information in a clear, mature and rational way... I have pressed forward in a conversation with very few people despite many more trying to bully their way in and make me go away without giving much information, something I don't really understand their reasoning for.
I haven't called names, or called liar or faker, I haven't suggested that people are stupid, or need to "get things through their head". I have thanked people for their contributions, and I have used their info to continue my own research, not relying entirely on forum members to offer info.

I get that you are an admin and can lock the thread or boot me forever, but seriously, what have I done here that warrants this kind of treatment? Do your other co-moderators agree with your stance after reading the whole thread?

User avatar
John G.
Host - Militaria sections
Posts: 5775
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 19:56
Location: USA

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#52

Post by John G. » 05 Aug 2014, 12:45

There can be no in-depth, historical discussion of a reproduction!..... which has been the opinion of nearly everyone "here".... if you seek "other" opinions, then ask on other forums... as I recommended, as they have a larger "collector" base. If you want historical discussion, move this to the "political" section where you'll probably get "no response" (as they don't know "details" like experienced collectors do).... this is the Militaria & Collecting section.

As far as you're other points go.... "bullheaded", etc.,.... we who have devoted our lives to collecting and learning about this stuff may look at it a little differently.... when you accept the opinions of "unknowns" who may or may not know what their talking about... against those of us who very publicly put our knowledge (and reputations to a degree) on the line to help other less knowledgible collectors/newbees/or civilians who stumble into stuff look at it differantly...

No one has blocked or banned you.... or this thread. Post a new thread/new information and we'll gladly give our assistance and opinions. However, this subject has gone as far as it can, nearly everyone who contributes here has responded.... and nothing will satisfy you except the answer you want to hear.... and that won't happen here.

However... you've only had "2 strikes" in my book.... a new inning will put this all in the past.... and you eventually might learn something about the subject matter at hand... and realize "we" usually know what we're talking about (the forum community, I mean)....

Never anything personal...
John G.

Fullmetalmonkey
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 24 Jul 2014, 20:34

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#53

Post by Fullmetalmonkey » 05 Aug 2014, 17:39

John G. wrote:There can be no in-depth, historical discussion of a reproduction!..... which has been the opinion of nearly everyone "here"...


With all due respect I can't believe I'm hearing this... All things that happened in the past are history, and we most certainly can have a historical discussion of the various reproductions, workmanship, materials, reasons, places, times, etc...... It may not be as stimulating as talking about actual German stuff, but it's an important part of both history and collecting.

Also... It has been the opinion of a few people that it may be a repro, though they furnished no reasoning beyond "I think", which is fine and all, but if I disregard it in favor if more thorough info, why should I get chastised? Thing is, a few others had opposing opinions, and they were actively giving info and details. Why is their opinion less valid?

Maybe I did go to the wrong site to ask this, but that shouldn't be a justification for being treated the way I have.

Ian Hulley
Member
Posts: 2618
Joined: 07 Jan 2005, 13:00
Location: Derbyshire,UK.

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#54

Post by Ian Hulley » 05 Aug 2014, 19:48

Ok, let's look at this coolly ... the eagle may be original, personally I think that's possible but it's virtually impossible to prove this either way.

Historians study just that ... History, we as collectors study the items we collect ... in my case now IIIrd Reich awards and before that SS insignia. As a by-product of my collecting I can tell you quite a lot about the IIIrd Reich period, most historians know dates, names and places but ignore the minutæ which we thrive on. John's perfectly correct, I'll wager many historians couldn't even distinguish the branch or party organisation most people in any one photograph.

As I suggested, you need to drop this eagle in the 'Definitely Maybe' box and sometime in the future you just may come across a legitimate source (that's 'legitimate' as opposed to 'crooked' aka Shyster)

Ian

User avatar
John G.
Host - Militaria sections
Posts: 5775
Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 19:56
Location: USA

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#55

Post by John G. » 06 Aug 2014, 12:59

For the record.... another member posted this eagle on the WAF and the initial response is that it's a "good" Judicial Eagle..... So I post this in fairness and openness.... I'd still wait for a wider response before celebrating too much...

Personally, I disagree, but as I said, you have a much wider COLLECTOR BASE there... whatever the consensus is there will at least satisfy the majority of the collecting world....
John G.

Fullmetalmonkey
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 24 Jul 2014, 20:34

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#56

Post by Fullmetalmonkey » 06 Aug 2014, 20:58

Excellent, I will look into that.... thank you very much, John

I will still put it in the Definitely Maybe category with a hefty amount of skepticism.

If I come across any other evidence that I consider worthy of mention (one way or the other) I will report back.

Laurence Strong
Member
Posts: 1221
Joined: 16 Jan 2005, 07:01
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#57

Post by Laurence Strong » 07 Aug 2014, 02:24

Since it's out in the open.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... ost6538522



Sincerely
Larry

User avatar
Mark in Cleveland, Tn.
Member
Posts: 5761
Joined: 27 Jul 2004, 02:30
Location: Cleveland ,tennessee

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#58

Post by Mark in Cleveland, Tn. » 07 Aug 2014, 03:46

Hmmmmmmmmm, I guse I owe Fullmonkey an apology. *I am sorry for ripping you a new one**

Ian Hulley
Member
Posts: 2618
Joined: 07 Jan 2005, 13:00
Location: Derbyshire,UK.

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#59

Post by Ian Hulley » 07 Aug 2014, 10:43

Yes, I had a feeling it could be real just based on the manufacture. It's still only an old eagle though and not exactly going to be worth enough to retire on.

Ian

Fullmetalmonkey
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 24 Jul 2014, 20:34

Re: Help identifying early NSDAP Eagle patch

#60

Post by Fullmetalmonkey » 08 Aug 2014, 07:58

Finally signed up at Wehrmacht-Awards.com and a simple search for "judicial Eagle" gave more than a couple threads that confirm or corroborate the idea of it being a judicial Eagle... This one is even exactly the same design as mine..

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... hp?t=42330

Here's the part that's going to piss you all off.... But it needs to be said... Every single one of them is very sure of their information.... And while it's nice to feel right, I still have to mention, not one of them that I saw, and I'm still looking, gave any more info than... "yep, it's a *blank*".... Some people were citing black background, velvet like backing, or facing it's right (even with red tongue)... All of which mine has........... But where did they get their info? Did they read it somewhere? Did they see pics of judges wearing them? Did they just hear it from a "good" source?

You may ask... "What's wrong with this guy? He got the answer he wanted ".... No, I didn't... I didn't want a positive answer, I wanted a proved answer... I wanted to be a diligent critical thinker and history/collecting detective. It's really easy for a "good source" to answer a question incorrectly, and for decades people repeat the info as gospel, without challenging or finding any true evidence to corroborate.

My Eagle is rather rare, whether it's fake or not, and someone somewhere has to have some kind of info linking it to its source.... I give that it may not be here, but I don't find it too much to ask that people understand my search, not as bullheaded, delusional, or a waste of time, but instead as an intellectual challenge... It seems really easy to find documentary evidence of nearly all other insignia, patches, tinnies, etc. (I'm sure there is a fair share of rare ones with no info).... But this one seems be really odd... It's not like most others, it's difficult to find proof. And that, in itself, to me, sounds like reason enough to keep searching.

For instance...at the very least... What year is it from? Why did some have a red tongue and others not?

Post Reply

Return to “Axis Uniforms, Headgear & Insignia”