Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
- Nürnberger Jungfrau
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Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Maybe it's a shame, but I find it hard to recognize this type of Rosenberg's uniform. Looks like it's black, so it cannot be SA...? To put it briefly, I'm confused. Maybe some experts could share their opinions...?
Sad, but I don't have the first photo in a big format...So if someone could post it in a big format, I would be very grateful. This photo was taken from ullstein bild.
Sad, but I don't have the first photo in a big format...So if someone could post it in a big format, I would be very grateful. This photo was taken from ullstein bild.
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
I think it's Alfred Rosenberg, with the first Reichsleiter pattern uniform.
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
I have talked about this in other threads but I will go through it again. This uniform worn by Rosenberg, is the SECOND style Reichsleitung uniform for those department chiefs in the year 1933. This was before the Political Leaders structure was finalized for the 1934-39 insignias. There were several different color uniforms -- light brown, dark Brown etc. The collar tabs here are the reason for all the confusion. In early 1933 new PL uniforms were designed with collar insignia. Although no regulations exist, the department chiefs wore collar tabs that looked like SA Gruppenfuhrer tabs. These were carmine based with gold oakleaves and gold piping. By MId 1933 these tabs were abolished probably because they looked too much like the SA tabs.
There were two men that continued to wear the first style tabs in 1934. They were Gottfried Feder and Wilhelm von Holzschuher. Feder was phased out of the Reichsleitung but von Holzschuher was a special Inspector on the Deputy Führer staff without any rank hence he still wore these old tabs as no insignia was created for his unique rank. Here is von Holzschuher wearing PL uniform with the FIRST style Reichsleitung tabs. Here is a photo of Rosenberg and Wilhelm Brückner showing how the FIRST style Reichsleitung tabs closely looked like the SA Gruppenfuhrer tabs worn by Wilhelm Brückner. Hopefully this answers all the confusion.
Mark Costa
The department chiefs then starting wearing the tabs shown in Jungfrau's photos above which look like Gauleiter tabs. Again these were carmine based with gold oakleaves and gold piping. But again because these looked too much like gauleiter tabs they too became discontinued.
Also, by June 1933 SOME of the department chiefs were promoted to the new rank of Reichsleiter yet these men continued to wear both the first and second style reichsleitung tabs. NOTE that I mention Reichsleitung as opposed to Reichsleiter. In early 1934 Reichsleiter tabs were finally officially designed and worn just like the ones that Rosenberg is wearing in Thoma's photo above. There were two men that continued to wear the first style tabs in 1934. They were Gottfried Feder and Wilhelm von Holzschuher. Feder was phased out of the Reichsleitung but von Holzschuher was a special Inspector on the Deputy Führer staff without any rank hence he still wore these old tabs as no insignia was created for his unique rank. Here is von Holzschuher wearing PL uniform with the FIRST style Reichsleitung tabs. Here is a photo of Rosenberg and Wilhelm Brückner showing how the FIRST style Reichsleitung tabs closely looked like the SA Gruppenfuhrer tabs worn by Wilhelm Brückner. Hopefully this answers all the confusion.
Mark Costa
Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Mark Costa was accurate.
Were silvered oak leaves for Hauptdienstleiter ( Head Service Leader ), and golden for Gauleiter.The department chiefs then starting wearing the tabs shown in Jungfrau's photos above which look like Gauleiter tabs. Again these were carmine based with gold oakleaves and gold piping. But again because these looked too much like gauleiter tabs they too became discontinued.
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Von Thoma:
Yes the Reichshauptdienstleiter tabs were SILVER and GOLD for Gauleiter. But the Hauptdienstleiter tabs did not come into being until late 1934. The Gauleiter tabs came into use in mid to late 1933 during the same period as these Second Reichsleitung tabs. It can only be assumed that they were too similar to the gauleiter tabs and were abolished in late 1933. The Reichsleiter tabs that we all know of with the eagle and wreath came into use in February 1934 when all new tabs and structure was created for all PL's. The 1933 period is very confusing as all these type insignias were being used at the same time and no regulations were ever issued in most cases. We only have photos to determine what was going on at the time. But all these early tabs were gone by mid 1934 with the exception of those being worn by von Holzschurer as shown in my photo above.
Mark Costa
Yes the Reichshauptdienstleiter tabs were SILVER and GOLD for Gauleiter. But the Hauptdienstleiter tabs did not come into being until late 1934. The Gauleiter tabs came into use in mid to late 1933 during the same period as these Second Reichsleitung tabs. It can only be assumed that they were too similar to the gauleiter tabs and were abolished in late 1933. The Reichsleiter tabs that we all know of with the eagle and wreath came into use in February 1934 when all new tabs and structure was created for all PL's. The 1933 period is very confusing as all these type insignias were being used at the same time and no regulations were ever issued in most cases. We only have photos to determine what was going on at the time. But all these early tabs were gone by mid 1934 with the exception of those being worn by von Holzschurer as shown in my photo above.
Mark Costa
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Mark Costa, thanks a lot for that comprehensive explanation! It's so interesting, I've never thought that there were plenty of different Reichsleiter uniform types. The photos are also very nice and rare.
So all I can do now is conjecture which one of these uniforms is worn by him on that tiny photo I suppose that it's the second style too.
So all I can do now is conjecture which one of these uniforms is worn by him on that tiny photo I suppose that it's the second style too.
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Jungfrau:
The first photo I posted with the "SA" FIRST style tabs on Rosenberg was taken at the same time as your tiny photo. Here is another photo from this event which is quite similar to your tiny photo probably taken only a few seconds later. I have several photos from this event from several different angles.
As I stated earlier these type tabs were worn in 1933 by several Reichsleitung Department Chiefs. They lasted a few months from about Feb to June 1933. Then the Second style came into being and some of the chiefs switched to the Second "gauleiter" type. But there are photos where both styles are being worn at the same time. Feder and Holzschurer continued to wear the first style into 1934. Why they did not change to the second style is unknown to me. The Second style lasted until the end of 1933. By mid to late January 1934 the new 1934-39 tabs and structure was put into place and then the Reichsleiters starting wearing the eagle/wreath tabs on the now familiar light brown uniforms.
One must remember that the newly revised Reichsleitung was just getting started and there was a lot of confusion to ranks and insignias. And during 1933 there was no regulations as to what a Reichsleiter was to wear that would differentiate him from another non-Reichsleiter person like Holzschurer. It has always puzzled me as to why Holzschurer never was promoted to Reichsleiter rank, as he was the only non-Reichsleiter ever invited to Reichsleiter conferences in the 1933-35 period.
Here is a list of those men who I have been able to identify wearing these two style Reichsleitung tabs.
REICHSLEITUNG TABS FIRST STYLE -- LOOK LIKE SA GRUPPENFUHRER TABS.
Buttmann, Rudolf
Feder, Gottfried
Ley, Robert Reichsleiter
Hierl, Konstantin Reichsleiter
Rosenberg, Alfred Reichsleiter
Schwarz, Franz X. Reichsleiter
Reinhardt, Fritz
Reiner, Rolf
Holzschuher, Wilhelm von
Grimm, Wilhelm Reichsleiter
Buch, Walter Reichsleiter
Fiehler, Karl Reichsleiter
Bouhler, Philipp Reichsleiter
Frank, Hans Reichsleiter
RECIHSLEITUNG TABS SECOND STYLE -- LOOK LIKE GAULEITER TABS.
Dr. Ley, Robert Reichsleiter
Rosenberg, Alfred Reichsleiter
Dietrich, Otto Reichsleiter
Fiehler, Karl Reichsleiter
Proksch, Alfred
Schumann, Walter
Hinkler, Paul
Gottschalk, Walter
Habicht, Theo
Schmeer, Rudolf
Hofer, Franz
As you can see the FIRST STYLE was more popular with all members of the Reichsleitung. Note that only 4 Reichsleiters wore the SECOND STYLE. I am assuming that because these tabs came later in the year (1933) that most did not bother to update their uniforms -- probably because they knew that a whole new set of uniforms were coming in early 1934. By Mid 1934 all department chiefs were either Reichsleiters or Reichshauptdienstleiters with the appropriate insignias. Only von Holzschuher was without a rank and hence I assume that is why he continued to wear these old tabs. He held the unique position of "Reichsinspektor for Special Purposes". He held this position until the end of 1935 when it seems he was slowly pushed aside. He then wore only his SS uniform from on.
As I said it was a very confusing time for ranks/insignias and some of the men who wore them ended up being ousted by the end of 1933, while others ended up with the Reichsleiter rank and others like Schumann and Hinkler were given far lower ranks in the Reichsleitung.
Mark Costa
The first photo I posted with the "SA" FIRST style tabs on Rosenberg was taken at the same time as your tiny photo. Here is another photo from this event which is quite similar to your tiny photo probably taken only a few seconds later. I have several photos from this event from several different angles.
As I stated earlier these type tabs were worn in 1933 by several Reichsleitung Department Chiefs. They lasted a few months from about Feb to June 1933. Then the Second style came into being and some of the chiefs switched to the Second "gauleiter" type. But there are photos where both styles are being worn at the same time. Feder and Holzschurer continued to wear the first style into 1934. Why they did not change to the second style is unknown to me. The Second style lasted until the end of 1933. By mid to late January 1934 the new 1934-39 tabs and structure was put into place and then the Reichsleiters starting wearing the eagle/wreath tabs on the now familiar light brown uniforms.
One must remember that the newly revised Reichsleitung was just getting started and there was a lot of confusion to ranks and insignias. And during 1933 there was no regulations as to what a Reichsleiter was to wear that would differentiate him from another non-Reichsleiter person like Holzschurer. It has always puzzled me as to why Holzschurer never was promoted to Reichsleiter rank, as he was the only non-Reichsleiter ever invited to Reichsleiter conferences in the 1933-35 period.
Here is a list of those men who I have been able to identify wearing these two style Reichsleitung tabs.
REICHSLEITUNG TABS FIRST STYLE -- LOOK LIKE SA GRUPPENFUHRER TABS.
Buttmann, Rudolf
Feder, Gottfried
Ley, Robert Reichsleiter
Hierl, Konstantin Reichsleiter
Rosenberg, Alfred Reichsleiter
Schwarz, Franz X. Reichsleiter
Reinhardt, Fritz
Reiner, Rolf
Holzschuher, Wilhelm von
Grimm, Wilhelm Reichsleiter
Buch, Walter Reichsleiter
Fiehler, Karl Reichsleiter
Bouhler, Philipp Reichsleiter
Frank, Hans Reichsleiter
RECIHSLEITUNG TABS SECOND STYLE -- LOOK LIKE GAULEITER TABS.
Dr. Ley, Robert Reichsleiter
Rosenberg, Alfred Reichsleiter
Dietrich, Otto Reichsleiter
Fiehler, Karl Reichsleiter
Proksch, Alfred
Schumann, Walter
Hinkler, Paul
Gottschalk, Walter
Habicht, Theo
Schmeer, Rudolf
Hofer, Franz
As you can see the FIRST STYLE was more popular with all members of the Reichsleitung. Note that only 4 Reichsleiters wore the SECOND STYLE. I am assuming that because these tabs came later in the year (1933) that most did not bother to update their uniforms -- probably because they knew that a whole new set of uniforms were coming in early 1934. By Mid 1934 all department chiefs were either Reichsleiters or Reichshauptdienstleiters with the appropriate insignias. Only von Holzschuher was without a rank and hence I assume that is why he continued to wear these old tabs. He held the unique position of "Reichsinspektor for Special Purposes". He held this position until the end of 1935 when it seems he was slowly pushed aside. He then wore only his SS uniform from on.
As I said it was a very confusing time for ranks/insignias and some of the men who wore them ended up being ousted by the end of 1933, while others ended up with the Reichsleiter rank and others like Schumann and Hinkler were given far lower ranks in the Reichsleitung.
Mark Costa
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Here is another photo that shows both the FIRST and SECOND STYLE REICHSLEITUNG TABS in wear at the same time in mid 1933. Note that Schwarz, Feder, Buttmann, Grimm and Hierl wear the first style tabs on the dark brown uniform while Robert Ley wears the second style Reichsleitung tabs on the light brown uniform. Again these are NOT Reichsleiter tabs --these are department chief tabs in the Reichsleitung. By the end of 1933 these tabs were abolished although as stated earlier Feder and von Holzschuher continued to wear first style into 1934. It is very apparent as to why these would be abolished as they look too much like SA and Gauleiter tabs. The new insignias of 1934 would make sure the Reichsleiters and other department chiefs would have very distinct tabs.
Mark Costa
Mark Costa
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
Oh, yes, now it can be clearly seen that it's the first style indeed. The photos from this set are very notable, in my opinion, so I should say that you possess the real treasureMark Costa wrote:Jungfrau:
The first photo I posted with the "SA" FIRST style tabs on Rosenberg was taken at the same time as your tiny photo. Here is another photo from this event which is quite similar to your tiny photo probably taken only a few seconds later. I have several photos from this event from several different angles.
This statistics is also very interesting. Obviously, Rosenberg was not that lazy to ignore the latest uniform trendsMark Costa wrote:
As you can see the FIRST STYLE was more popular with all members of the Reichsleitung. Note that only 4 Reichsleiters wore the SECOND STYLE. I am assuming that because these tabs came later in the year (1933) that most did not bother to update their uniforms -- probably because they knew that a whole new set of uniforms were coming in early 1934. By Mid 1934 all department chiefs were either Reichsleiters or Reichshauptdienstleiters with the appropriate insignias. Only von Holzschuher was without a rank and hence I assume that is why he continued to wear these old tabs. He held the unique position of "Reichsinspektor for Special Purposes". He held this position until the end of 1935 when it seems he was slowly pushed aside. He then wore only his SS uniform from on.
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Re: Alfred Rosenberg's uniform
I want to belatedly thank you, Mark, for this very valuable explanation of something that has always confused me.
Best wishes,
~ Mike
Best wishes,
~ Mike