Units at Kut 1915

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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stevebecker
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Units at Kut 1915

#1

Post by stevebecker » 15 Dec 2014, 02:27

Mates,

Do you have any details on the units of the 12th Corps or 13th Corps during the fighting around Kut in 1915

Known units;

4th Army HQ (was in Palestine what Army commanded the units around Kut in 1915 before the 6th Army HQ arrived around April 1916)

Zeki Pasha 11-14 - Col Ahmed Djemal (Cemal or Cemel) Pasha 11-14 to 9-17 - Cemal Pasa (Mersinli) 3-18 to 10-18

CofS - Col Frankenberg (G)


12th Corps (4th Army 1914) Mosul
Fahrettin Pasha - Remzi Pasha - Abdülkerim Pasha - Col Fahrettin Bey (Altay)

13th Corps (4th Army 1914) Baghdad
Hüsamettin Pasa - LtCol Namik Bey - LtCol Ali Necip Bey - Col Ali Ihsan Pasa (Feb 1916) -
Col Nazif (Kayacik) Bey (1918?) - Col Hüseyin Selahattin Bey -

Who were the CofS of these Corps?

35th Division Rezzak Bey
1-3/103rd Regt
1-3/104th Regt - Maj Sadik Bey
1-3/105th Regt
35th Artillery Regt

38th Division Rushdi Bey
1-3/112th Regt
1-3/113th Regt
1-3/114th Regt
38th Artillery Regt

Can you help fill in the gaps of these units around Kut 1915.

Cheers

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#2

Post by stevebecker » 21 Dec 2014, 01:52

Mates,

I did see some details on the Turkish webb site which shows this officer possibly with the 38th DIv?

"The next target of the Indian division was the town of Basra, which was defended by a force of 2,900 troops commanded by Suphi Paşa. Basra fell on November 22, with a Turkish loss of 1,200 prisoners, including Suphi Paşa himself, and three cannons."

Do we known who Suphi Pasha is and any details on him?

This site also shows the commander of the 38th Div as LtCol Süleyman Askeri Bey 11-14 WIA 12-4-15 at Shaiba suicide soon after, while other sites show its only commander as Rushdi Bey?

38th Division Rushdi Bey (reported LtCol Süleyman Askeri Bey 11-14 WIA 12-4-15 at Shaiba, and also

35th Division - Rezzak Bey (shown Mehmet Fazil Pasa 1-15) during fighting early 1915

I take it that Rushdi Bey and Rezzak Bet took command after these officers?

Any ideas?

Cheers

S.B


stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#3

Post by stevebecker » 25 Dec 2014, 00:45

Mate,

One answer can in but dosn;t follow the Turkish version?

"Suphi Pasha is probably the Vali of Basrah, Colonel Subhi Bey

After the action at Saihan on 15th November (involving 2/112th, 1/113th & 2/113th, a battalion of the Basrah Gendarmarie, four field-guns, four mountain-guns and four machine-guns) the Ottomans retired to Zain “where they were reinforced by a detachment of the 1/26th and a troop of cavalry. Colonel Subhi Bey now took over command in person”

On 17th November the Ottomans were attacked and defeated at Zain

Subhai Bey retired with part of his force to Baljanyah, while Major Adil Bey took the remainder (including the 114th

who before Zain had been sent off to the town of Abul Khasib) to Zubair"

"Caveat: the above info is from Lt-Col C C R Murphy's 'Soldiers of the Prophet' and is therefore second hand "

ie. He was not there himself, but got the story from Turkish officers in occupied Istanbul in 1918-1919.

I hope that this is of some help here

Michael

So Surphi Pasa could be Subhi Bay?

Cheers

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#4

Post by stevebecker » 27 Dec 2014, 01:11

Tosun, my friend,

Can I ask you or one of our mates, to see why they called these Bn's these names?

Muretteb Battalion, and

Osmanjik Battalion

Were they from that district or is it the Battalion commanders names?

"Col Murphy has an OoB for the Ottoman forces in his chapter 'The Attempt to Recapture Basrah'

The details are for the “Right Wing command and the tribesmen, concentrated between Shamiyah and Nakhailah on 27th March 1915”

In this OoB he mentions

1st Muretteb Battalion – (The Osmanjik Battalion and the 1st/26th Regiment) 17 Officers and 729 Other Ranks

This battalion is also mentioned in the Operational Orders, Right Wing Command, at Barjisiyah Wood, April 1915

“Item 3 – Ajaimi Bey and his tribesmen will attack at right angles to the line of the Markab Shaiba towers; the 1st Muretteb Battalion to the left of this line.....

Item 5 – A field hospital will be established behind the Fire Brigade (Battalion) and the 1st Muretteb Battalion...........

signed Ali Bey, Lieut-Colonel, OC Right Wing”

Of the conclusion of the action Murphy writes

'The casualties amongst the regular troops at Barjisiyah amounted to 54 officers and 2381 other ranks. These figures do not include the very slightly wounded. The casualties amongst the Arab and Kurdish tribesmen are unknown, but probably did not exceed a few hundred. The bulk of the casualties occurred amongst the Turkish troops, namely the Fire Brigade (Battalion) and the 1st Muretteb Battalion' "

Any ideas?

S.B

Tosun Saral
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#5

Post by Tosun Saral » 27 Dec 2014, 23:59

There is a Brigadier Suphi Paşa during Balkan Wars who was isnpector general of halting-places (menzil) of the Eatern Armyin 1912
In 1913 we see him as commander of 4th Tribes Cav. Div. at Bolayir Battles. This division might consist of Kurds of Arabsic tribes. I dont axactly know.

At Irak ther is a Col Suphi Bey C of 38th Div. He was taken POw at Kurna on May 1916 and died in captivity.
As we know Enver pasha decreased the ranks of many officers to a lower level. Suphi might be one of them His pasha rank might be reduced to Col.
SorryI am learnig also many unkown. :)

Tosun Saral
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#6

Post by Tosun Saral » 28 Dec 2014, 00:14

After Suphi Bey was taken pow the 38th Div was re orgnized as on dec. 10th 1914
-Sahrıca Müfrezesi (Detachment) C by Maj. Hakkı. which consisted of Mobile Jendarm battalions, Bagdat Depot Battalion, Border Battalion at Bedre, and a art. battalion. On Dec 10th Sarhrıca was reinforced and got the name Şatra.commanded by Maj. Ata.
- South Detachment C: Maj. Adil. Later general He was an Irak Arab and fought bravely.
- Mürettep 1. Alay ( Composed 1st R C: Maj Halim
- Composed 2 . R. C:Maj Seyfullah
114t R C.Maj Salih
Tribal forces commanded by Ucemi sadun Pasha

Muretteb Battalion is composed battalio

Tosun Saral
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#7

Post by Tosun Saral » 28 Dec 2014, 00:22

Osmanjik (Osmancık) Battalion was established by Süleyman Askeri Bey in İstanbul from men of Turkish Kayi tribe. Kayı tribe is the main tribe who grunded Ottoman Empire. Sultan Osman was the Bey of Kayı Tribe. Original name of the battalion is Fedai (volunteer) Osmancık Taburu

stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#8

Post by stevebecker » 28 Dec 2014, 00:49

Tosun,

Yes its a new area for me also.

I found not much on the Turkish Army in Iraq during this part of the war.

I am interested as Australia sent its first Flying unit to Iraq and part of which was captured when Kut fell in 1915.

We then sent many small units to iraq during the next three years but they were suport troops being Signal units to help the British.

Thanks again your always a big help.

Cheers

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#9

Post by stevebecker » 28 Dec 2014, 01:24

Tosun,

You pose a number of questions?

Do you have any details on this officer?

LtCol Süleyman Askeri Bey 11-14 WIA 12-4-15 at Shaiba suicide soon after

who replaced him following his death?

and

Surphi Bey (pasa) you show as CO 38th Div?

Was he commander after Süleyman Askeri Bey or was he CofS ?

Do you have who was CofS 38th Div?

I have two possibles?

LtCol Ali Bey (possibly?) or Subhi Bey (possibly?) PoW 5-16 at Kurna died as PoW

Any ideas here would help sort this out?

Cheers

S.B

Tosun Saral
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#10

Post by Tosun Saral » 28 Dec 2014, 14:05

LtCol Süleyman Askeri Bey 11-14 WIA 12-4-15 at Shaiba suicide soon after
who replaced him following his death?
Süleyman Askeri ( Prizren/Turkish Macedonia 1884 -Irak 1915) Son of a Vehbi Pasha. Graduated the war Scool in 1905 as Staff Captain.
He was General commander of Irak and Surroundings. After his suicide Maj. Ali (MP Çetinkaya, Atatürk's close friend) took command for a short time. Then Col Nurettin Bey (Lt Gen. Sakallı) took command at the end of May.

Tosun Saral
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#11

Post by Tosun Saral » 28 Dec 2014, 14:14

Surphi Bey (pasa) you show as CO 38th Div?
Was he commander after Süleyman Askeri Bey or was he CofS ?

Suphi bey was taken POw during Kurna Battle on Dec. 9th 1914
Süleyman Askeri was appointed to General Commander of Irak and Surroundings on Dec. 20th 1914 . Therefore Suphi and Süleyman never worked together. Süleyman Askeri took command over Cavit Paşa on Jan 2nd 1915

stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#12

Post by stevebecker » 29 Dec 2014, 01:07

Tosun,

Thank you,

Sorry I got confused when you wrote above that;

"At Irak ther is a Col Suphi Bey C of 38th Div. He was taken POw at Kurna on May 1916 and died in captivity."

MY mistake.

Many thanks again always good to see you here.

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: Units at Kut 1915

#13

Post by stevebecker » 02 Jan 2015, 00:50

Mates,

A English mate sent me this on the capture of Suphi or Subhi Bey near Kurna;

"Col Murphy gives the following re the capture of this officer

“About midnight on the 8th a steamer ablaze with lights was seen coming down stream. She carried three Turkish officers bearing a message of surrender from Subhi Bey, who was commanding the 38th Division, and had been acting Wali of Basrah. General Fry insisted on an unconditional surrender, and so at 1 pm the next day the remnants of the Turkish garrison appeared before the trenches and laid down their arms. The Turkish officers then came forward and handed up their swords. General Fry returned Subhi Bey's sword in recognition of his having put up a good fight. The captives numbered 45 Officers and 1,000 men. …........ The Turkish casualties in and around Kurna and Mzaira'ah were about 500 killed and wounded, ours being roughly half that total.”

and from and Naval point of view;

" Shortly before midnight that night a steam launch was observed coming down from Kurna. As she was carrying all lights and blowing her syren we did not fire on her, but sent a boat to examine her. She was found to contain three Turkish officers who had come under a flag of truce to obtain terms of surrender. As it was not possible to communicate at once with our General (who was senior to the S.N.O.) the latter demanded the unconditional surrender of Kurna, failing which, he explained the assault would take place at daylight. After about two hours, when they found that we would agree to no other terms, the Turkish officers agreed to unconditional surrender. This was communicated to the General ashore as soon as we could get into touch with him, and the assault next morning stopped. The General came on board Espiègle at 8 a.m. with his staff, and at 10 a.m. at the top of high water we pushed on over the last few hundred yards of shallow water, steamed up into the Tigris, and anchored off Kurna. There we found the remainder of the garrison which had not escaped up either river, drawn up with arms piled. At 1 p.m. our troops had marched in, a party of bluejackets was landed also, and the formal surrender and hoisting of the Union Jack took place. Bluejackets from Espiègle hoisted the Union Jack. The total "bag" was over 1,000 prisoners, including Subhi Bey, the Vali of Basra, with 35 officers and 8 guns. There was one Turkish naval lieutenant amongst them who reported that he belonged to a Thorneycroft armed patrol boat, which had been sunk during the bombardment on the day before while lying in the Tigris off Kurna.”

Cheers

S.B

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