46th Turkish Infantry Regiment 1918

[domster]

Hi Steve

Just done a quick search on the forum and there is evidence the 146th was in the Damascus area end September/beginning of October see Bill's reply in this thread with Liman Von Saunders description of the rearguard action mentioning the 146th regiment

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=119515&hilit=146th

Interestingly Bill quotes the war diary of the 9LHR for the 1st October just a day before the action when the Turkish standard was captured!

hmm very interesting! Could the 146th been mistaken for 1/46th I wonder? That would probably make the cavalry you mention part of the 3rd cavalry Division mentioned by Von Sanders.

cheers
Dominic

[stevebecker]

Dom,

Mate well done you may have changed what the AWM has on this stabdard and give the brave men of the 146th Infantry their true story.

Its amazing what we can do when we all add to the research.

Thanks again

S.B

[domster]

Hi Steve

I had a quick look at the 9LHR war diary and the error starts there as they mention capturing the 46th Regiment standard. This was probably either a typo by the war diary writer, chinese whispers effect or a straight mis-translation of the regimental title by someone (or a combination of all three!). Just to be clear the AWM don't mention the 1/46th regiment only the 46th. The 1/46th attribution is my interpretation of what the identification error might have been.

Very nice if can all be proved and I think the problems with the 46th regiment and the fact the 146th were in exactly the right place at the right time are fairly compelling. I will sort htrough my notes as I have quite a few on the 146th due to my interest in the hejaz railway and souithern Jordan.

All the best
Dom.

[domster]

After initial euphoria I have discovered a fly in the ointment-after some Googling amazingly the German Masurisches Infanterie-Regt. Nr.146 appears to have been in the area at that date and it is no longer certain that Von Sanders reference is to the Turkish Regiment but to the German regiment. Therefore the Turkish 146th regiment possibly remains unlocated at this time! Talk about a rollercoaster ride!

Cheers
Dom.

[stevebecker]

Dom,

Yes mate my first look at Liman's notes gave me the same idea, but he does qualify his remarks;

"The 146th Infantry Regiment and the small German units attached to it were to form the rearguard"

If he ment the 146th Regt was German he wouldn't put "small German units" after, but called it the German 146th Regt?

But your right further reaseach wouldn't hert here?

S.B

[domster]

Hi Steve

Exactly my thoughts re Sanders comment, also the turkish 146th regiment is still the only logical choice for the regimental standard.

Cheers
Dom.

[stevebecker]

Dom,

Further reseach gives us this by a Turkish writter;

"The 146th Regiment had a long history and a most varied campaign geography as they started their commission on __.11.16 in Istanbul when absconded to the 46th Division. First sent to Southern Macedonia to fight the British and the French entrenched in Thessaloniki until 27.03.17; they were then deployed in Romania with the 2nd Bulgarian Army. Having returned to Istanbul by __.06.17 where the regiment was re-staffed with German Artillery and Machine Gun contingents; they were sent to Palestine to be included in the 8th Army formation (8th Army Corps at Damascus), also commanded by Kress von Kressenstein. Re-commissioned as an Autonomous Regiment and almost fully manned by German Staff during the Month of February, 1918; they were de-commissioned on 04.11.18 at Adana Station when they departed for Istanbul "

I have found the commander of the 146th Regt was Lt Col Schienholz, a German officer and the 8th Army Corps (Col Selahattin Bey) was reported outside Damascus with the 4th Army Oct 1918.

All proves that the 146th Regt was ay the time in the area and not the 46th Regt as mentioned?

S.B

[stevebecker]

Dom,

My checking see's this

My quote from Liman may be incorrect as British OH shows the 146th Regt mentioned by him may in fact be the German 146th Regt?

German records give us that Colonel Oppen with his German Asia Corps moved passed Der'a late Sept 1918 with the German 146th Regt at Er Remta.

By 30th Sept 1918 the quote comes into play by the mention of the 146th Regt being fired apon and the Barada Gorge closed.

See Vol 2 BOH Military Operations Egypt and Palestine pages 594 - 595

So may put me back to square one again?

S.B

[domster]

Hi Steve

As you say a big problem with 2 units with the same number-I wonder if this created confusion at the time. i am still going through my notes nothing yet. i have come across Schierholz before as he died at Ma'an in late 1917. he is mentioned in a set of letters by Moshe Sherratt who was a translator in the 146th Regiment (Turkish). Some of his letters were published in the Journal of The T E Lawrence Scoiety a few years ago. Sherratt describes the move south in July 1917 and actions in and around Ma'an against Arab forces.

Photo and biog of Schierholz here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/5481937167/

Cheers
Dom.

[Tosun Saral]

Prof.Dr. Tank Staff Col.(R) İsmet Görgülü mentions about LtCol Schienholz in his book "On Yıllık Harbin Kadrosu" (Personal of Ten Years Long War) only in p.183
"LtCol Schienholz commander of 146th IR of 46th Div, of 20th AC."

[stevebecker]

Mate,

British Intell reports give these little tidbits,

146th Regt (German)

25 Sept retired to Amman

27 Sept as at Shumet Nimrin

29 Sept escaped from Damascus by lorry to Rayak

So if correct the 146th Greman Regt was well clear of Damascus by 2 Oct 1918

Other bits include,

The Compostie Div retired to Amman 23 Sept 1918 covered by 9th and 11th Cav Regts

on the 25 Sept the 1Bn/66th Regt - 1Bn/146th Regt - 2Bn and 3Bn/152nd Regt at Rayak (all 4th Army)

32nd -136th and 163rd Regt's captured around Damascus near Duma Oct 1918

48th Div retired to Damascus and captured near Duma Oct 1918

3rd Cav Div Covered the 1st? and 11th Div's around Damascus 30 Sept 1918

148th and 151st Regt's captured near Damascus Oct 1918

All this gives us a posible unit for the flag but also it appears at lest the 1Bn 146th Regt was near Damascus at the time?

Cheers

S.B

[Tosun Saral]

Sorry I forgot to add. 146th IR was at Macedonian Front during Dec 6th 1916-March 1917

[stevebecker]

Mates,

The Intell reports for 2 Sept 1918 give the commander of the Composite Div as Serri or Sirri Bey, have you heard of him?

It also stated that one Bn 146th Regt (Turkish) was at Amman with two Bn's 146th Regt down at Maan.

Also reports for 2 Oct 1918 report Turkish prisoner form these units

Aust Mounted Div

3 Oct 1918

Captured men about Duma from the following Div's

1st - 11th - 14th - 16th - 17th - 19th - 20th - 24th - 26th - 37th - 44th - 46th and 53rd Div's.

reported dated 9 Oct 1918 mentions Turkish Cav captured around Nazareth

180 prisoners from the 6th, 7th and 8th Cav Regts (3rd Cav Div) as well as 9th and 13th Cav Regts (Composite Div) .


Dom,

Its possible at lest one Bn of the 146th Regt (Turkish) escaped from the trap around Amman and made it to Damascus?

S.B

[Tosun Saral]

Prof.Dr. Tank Staff Col.(R) İsmet Görgülü mentions about LtCol Schienholz in his book "On Yıllık Harbin Kadrosu" (Personal of Ten Years Long War) only in p.183
"LtCol Schienholz commander of 146th IR of 46th Div, of 20th AC."

Görgülü does not mention weather 146th a Turkish or german regiment but on the book "Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi IV ncü cilt 2 nci Kısım" page 596 ( Turkish War during WW1" IVth vol, 2nd part)

"Mayıs ayı içinde, Makedon'yadan getirilmekte olan 146 ncı Alman Piyade Alayı'nın bazı kısımları Salt'ta toplandı."
(In May, some units of the 14th German IR which was brought from Macedonia gathered at Salt)

[Bill Woerlee]

Mates

The continuation of this topic is a sort of a multi-forum discussion. Here is the link that fired this debate on the DESERT COLUMN FORUM.

Capturing the Turkish Regiment, 2 October 1918


http://desert-column.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1004

We are trying to establish the origin of the flag captured on 2 October 1918. It would appear that at this moment there is little possibility of the flag belonging to the 46th IR and more of a possibility that it belonged to the Turkish 146th IR.

Cheers

Bill