46th Turkish Infantry Regiment 1918

[Peter H]

Dont know about its size but the AWM standard seems a similar type to this regimental flag from the Library of Congress collection,American Colony in Jerusalem.

[domster]

Hi folks

I have checked my notes but cannot find a move for the 146th regiment from Ma'an (which doesn't mean there wasn't one!)

About turkish regimental standards:
Did each battalion of a regiment have one?
Were they marked with the battalion/regimental number either on the flag or on the pole?

All the best
Dom.

[stevebecker]

Dom,

Yes the only ref I can find is British Intell reports which give;

The Compostie Div retired to Amman 23 Sept 1918 covered by 9th and 11th Cav Regts

on the 25 Sept the 1Bn/66th Regt - 1Bn/146th Regt - 2Bn and 3Bn/152nd Regt at Rayak (all 4th Army)"

What is sure at lest a Bn of the 146th Regt made it to Adana to be disbanded in Nov 1918. (possibly the weak 1st Bn 146th Regt at Ryak)

But what happened to the 2nd and 3rd Bn's 146th Regt is still unknown after Amman 23 Sept 1918, but its is possible it retired to Damascus with the 48th Div (also 8th Corps) and could have surrendered with that Div outside Samascus near Duma around the 2 Oct 1918 with the 48th Div Commander.

S.B

[Osman Levent]

Gentlemen;
The 146th Regiment formed to be part of the 46th Infantry Division had a very varied history of operations. Even though a purely Turkish unit with few German Staff Officers serving as councilors at the time of its inception; became a mixed Regiment with several German Artillery and Machine Gun battalions during their Syrian operations. I have included a list of locations where they were deployed all throughout the war.

The 146. Regiment of the 46. Infantry Division
__.11.16 Istanbul (Orta Köy Police Station) 25.11.16 Istanbul (Çekme'ce i Sagîr Stn) 27.11.16 Drama Stn __.11.16

The 146. Regiment of the 46. Infantry Division (absconded to the 2. Bulgarian Army)
__.11.16 Drama Stn 07.12.16 Veznik 09.12.16 Dut'lu 17.03.17 Sirûz Stn 23.03.17 [Üsküb Stn - Niş Stn - Sofya Stn] __.04.17 Rus'cuk __.04.17 Çerna Voda __.04.17 Su'suz Ali Beğ __.04.17 Köstence __.06.17 Ist. (Haydar Paşa) __.06.17

The 146. Regiment (Turkish / German mixed Regiment) (absconded to Asienkorps)
__.06.17 Istanbul (Haydar Paşa Stn) __.06.17 Islâhiye Stn 16.06.17 Şam eş Şerîf (Hîcaz Stn) 19.06.17 Dera’a Stn __.06.17 Ayn Kerîm (Gorny Monastery) __.10.17 Bî’r es Seb’a __.10.17 Hırbet el Muveyle 31.10.17 Tel eş Şerîa 06.11.17 Halîl er Rahman 09.11.17 Yatta 14.11.17 Beni Nâim 16.11.17 Ras Şerîfe 19.11.18 Seffah 06.12.17 Ebu Dis 26.12.17 Ümm ec Cemal 29.12.17 Nablus __.02.18

The 146. Regiment (re-comissioned as an Autonomous Regiment in Division Status)
__.02.18 Nablus __.02.18 Şerîa Nehr'i 23.03.18 Amman __.05.18 Salt 21.09.18 Amman Stn 23.09.18 Remtâ 25.09.18 Dera’a Stn 27.09.18 Müzerrib Stn 29.09.18 Kisve Stn 01.10.18 Nebk 03.10.18 Hums Stn 05.10.18 Vuzûhî Stn 07.10.18 Tel Cibbeyn 24.10.18 Afrin Han'ı 27.10.18 Adana Stn 04.11.18 Istanbul (İstinye) __.11.18 ||
(de-comissioned & re-patriated to Germany on board Koroleva Olga (Urla), an impounded R.O.P.i T. vessel)

Best Regards, Osman Levend

[Tosun Saral]

Domster figured what I was thinking as he wrote "Did each battalion of a regiment have one?" I am not sure but now I hesitate. here are 3 standart exibited in this forum. 1- 79th, 2- captured and 3 - a one at military museum. (this is the back side of the captured one.
79th is different then the captured one. The 79th have many verses from the holy Koran but the captured one has only Allah is mighty and mohammed is his prbhet.
I hesitate dear friends. The captured must be a bannet of a battlion because we have a very good examble our old friend the standart of the 79th IR.

[Tosun Saral]

some more exambles of captured one. the 2nd pix a company parading before departing to gallipoli

[stevebecker]

Mates,

Thanks that clears it up nicely.

The Flag said to be the 46th Regt appears to be a Bn standard to an unknown unit, possibly from 146th Regt?

Osman

Do you know what or where these places are?

Müzerrib Stn 29.09.18

Kisve Stn 01.10.18

Nebk 03.10.18

Hums Stn 05.10.18

Cheers

S.B

[domster]

Gentlemen;
The 146th Regiment formed to be part of the 46th Infantry Division had a very varied history of operations. Even though a purely Turkish unit with few German Staff Officers serving as councilors at the time of its inception; became a mixed Regiment with several German Artillery and Machine Gun battalions during their Syrian operations. I have included a list of locations where they were deployed all throughout the war.

The 146. Regiment of the 46. Infantry Division
__.11.16 Istanbul (Orta Köy Police Station) 25.11.16 Istanbul (Çekme'ce i Sagîr Stn) 27.11.16 Drama Stn __.11.16

The 146. Regiment of the 46. Infantry Division (absconded to the 2. Bulgarian Army)
__.11.16 Drama Stn 07.12.16 Veznik 09.12.16 Dut'lu 17.03.17 Sirûz Stn 23.03.17 [Üsküb Stn - Niş Stn - Sofya Stn] __.04.17 Rus'cuk __.04.17 Çerna Voda __.04.17 Su'suz Ali Beğ __.04.17 Köstence __.06.17 Ist. (Haydar Paşa) __.06.17

The 146. Regiment (Turkish / German mixed Regiment) (absconded to Asienkorps)
__.06.17 Istanbul (Haydar Paşa Stn) __.06.17 Islâhiye Stn 16.06.17 Şam eş Şerîf (Hîcaz Stn) 19.06.17 Dera’a Stn __.06.17 Ayn Kerîm (Gorny Monastery) __.10.17 Bî’r es Seb’a __.10.17 Hırbet el Muveyle 31.10.17 Tel eş Şerîa 06.11.17 Halîl er Rahman 09.11.17 Yatta 14.11.17 Beni Nâim 16.11.17 Ras Şerîfe 19.11.18 Seffah 06.12.17 Ebu Dis 26.12.17 Ümm ec Cemal 29.12.17 Nablus __.02.18

The 146. Regiment (re-comissioned as an Autonomous Regiment in Division Status)
__.02.18 Nablus __.02.18 Şerîa Nehr'i 23.03.18 Amman __.05.18 Salt 21.09.18 Amman Stn 23.09.18 Remtâ 25.09.18 Dera’a Stn 27.09.18 Müzerrib Stn 29.09.18 Kisve Stn 01.10.18 Nebk 03.10.18 Hums Stn 05.10.18 Vuzûhî Stn 07.10.18 Tel Cibbeyn 24.10.18 Afrin Han'ı 27.10.18 Adana Stn 04.11.18 Istanbul (İstinye) __.11.18 ||
(de-comissioned & re-patriated to Germany on board Koroleva Olga (Urla), an impounded R.O.P.i T. vessel)

Best Regards, Osman Levend

Hi guys

I think are a couple of problems with this list:
firstly there is no mention of the Turkish 146th regiment's move south to Ma'an in southern Jordan which clearly happened in July 1917.
secondly at the end it says "(de-comissioned & re-patriated to Germany on board Koroleva Olga (Urla), an impounded R.O.P.i T. vessel)". This clealry refers to the the german Masaurishes IR 146 not the Turkish 146th-does this list actually refer to the German 146th?

Steve


Müzerrib Stn 29.09.18

Kisve Stn 01.10.18

Nebk 03.10.18

Hums Stn 05.10.18

All stations on the hejaz railway Kiswe is south of Damascus the rest are north of damascus-Hums is presumably modern Homs nice place probably not so nice now.

All the best
Dom.

[Osman Levent]

Hi Dom
As I have already explained, the 146th Regiment had a very "colorful" period of operations. One must first realize few facts before establishing a guideline to their deployments in the Syrian theater of war. Even though the Regiment started life in training on the hills above a small precinct of Istanbul along the European coast of the Bosphorus; they were soon sent to fight the French and the British in or about Thessaloniki along the 2nd Bulgarian Army. At this time they only had few German and Austrian liaison officers in its ranks. After two months of futile attempts by both sides, the Regiment was ordered to Rumania by train even though all hostilities had already ceased since the latter had capitulated to MacKensen Army Group whilst Bucureşti, the Capital had been occupied ever since February, 1917. The 146th arrived in Bucureşti by April, the same year; to pass on to Constanta to remain until late June. It is at about the same time that the Asienkorps (i.e. Pasha II), part of the Falkengruppe (i.e. Pasha I) already formed and trained in Silesia arrived in Constanta as well. This is when the basic Turkish rank and file make up of the 146th was changed to a mainly German outfit with the addition of several technical units of artillery and machine gun battalions where the Turkish contingent became a minority for co-ordination purposes with the rest of the Ottoman Army. Shipped immediately to Istanbul on board impounded Rumanian liners; they were hastily embarked on all available trains to Palestine where Jerusalem and environs were now under attack. Whether or not this most powerful Regiment now re-commissioned in Division status was sent as south as Ma'an in Jordan when the most important city of the region, Jerusalem was being fought over; remains a far fetched possibility to me since the city in question was far from any action at the date in question. The War Annals of the Turkish General Staff certainly do not record such a move.
Another point that I have to make is the fact that all German personnel and all military formations were under the direct orders of the Ottoman High Command as already stipulated by a previous agreement between the two countries. That is why the Falkengruppe was only nickname whereas the full and official name of the overall command of the 4th, the 7th and the 8th Ottoman Armies was known as "Yıldırım Ordular Grubu" or as "Heeresgruppe F" in German to be commanded by General Falkenhein who had been duly appointed and commissioned by the Sultan as an Ottoman "Paşa". The German Annals might refer to both names in German but the official Ottoman records never mention a "Heeresgruppe F" nor a German 146th Infantry Regiment. The list that I have compiled from the official War Annals published by the War History Department of the Turkish General Staff clearly indicate the Ottoman identity of this Regiment whilst acknowledging its full German character. Consequently, I must re-iterate my firm belief that there were no two 146th Regiments in the Palestinian theater of operations, but only one which was de-commissioned & re-patriated to Germany on board Koroleva Olga.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[domster]

Hi Osman

Thanks for the reply-obviously there is a problem here-especially as it is fairly clear that there was a German 146th Regiment in Palestine in 1918, see Steve's Order of battle for the AsienKorps here:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... pic=154368

listing the Masurische Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 146

Also British Intelligence summaries and Moshe Sharett's letters record the movement of the Turkish 146th Regiment to Ma'an in July 1917, a town which was an important garrison, workshop and airfield on the Hejaz railway and which was threatened by attack from the Arab Army after the capture of Aqaba in July 1917. Indeed the arab army attacked the town in April 1918. Also what was Rudolf Schierholz, C.O. of the Turkish 146th regiment doing in Ma'an when he died and was buried there in December 1917? British Intelligence summaries report deserters from the 146th regiment in the Ma'an area as late as July 1918.
all very strange!

All the best
Dom.

[stevebecker]

Mates,

You both could be right, as the Regt was disbanded at Adana in Nov 1918 the German elements would then have returned home while the Turkish elements retuned to Istanboul.

While I hav'nt found who replaced LtCol Schienholz after he died, I did find these of the Composite Div;

1st Comp Div

Sirri or Serri Bey 8-17 -
LtCol Hofter (German) 9-18 to
LtCol Schierstaedt (German) 10-18 PoW 10-18

Did one of these German officers command the 146th Turkish Regt after Schienholz?

And was Schierstaedt captured with the remainder of his Division some where?


S.B

[Osman Levent]

Hi Dom,

You are definitely correct when you say that there is a problem. According to the link you have passed on to me; the 1st Expeditionary Corps (i.e. die 1. EXPEDITIONSKORPS) is shown to be formed by March, 1916 whereas the War Annals of the Turkish General Staff clearly indicate the 29.12.15 date ! Furthermore the so called "FA300" (i.e. Deutsche Feld - Flieger Abteilung 300 * Pascha *) arrived in the Palestinian Front only by mid 1916 when the 1st Expeditionary Corps was already de-commissioned to form the Sinaï Front Command since their first two offensives to cross the Suez Canal had failed miserably. As indicated in the same link; both of these two last units were indeed commanded by Kress von Kressenstein. The 300th Squadron on the other hand was the new name given to the "DEUTSCHE HEERESANGEHÖRIGE der Fliegertruppe Major Serno" in teaching duties at the Flight School in Istanbul ever since late 1915. Unfortunately for many a student in this field; the fact that the short cognomen "Pascha" used by the 300th Squadron in 1916 ended up to be mistaken for "Pascha I" and "Pascha II" which were used about a year and a half later in 1917 by the Falkengruppe and the Asienkorps respectively. Furthermore the "16,000 Army Expedition", i.e. the 1st Expeditionary Force mentioned in the link sould not be read as an all German force sent to assist the Ottoman Army since it was formed based on the much enforced 3rd and the 10th Infantry Divisions of the Ottoman Army with absconded units of German and Austrian auxiliary formations and were never designated as "Pascha I".
About Rudolf Schierholz, the C.O. of the Turkish 146th Regiment; I went back and checked the two Sections of the IV Volume of the "The Turkish War during the First World War" concerning the Palestinian as well as the Hijaz Fronts published by the Turkish General Staff. During the Month of December, 1917; the only major unit in Ma'an was the 1st Force in Formation (in Division status), a hastily commissioned unit of two brigades in total formed by several Companies sent from various Regiments operating in the region including the 58th Division in "al Madinah". I don't know if Rudolf Schierholz had been sent here to command this new outfit but I can assure you that none of the books I have gone through mention the 146th Regiment to be near the Railway during the dates in question. As far as the British Intelligence reports concerning deserters from this Regiment during the Month of July, 1918 are quite plausible since they were deployed in Salt and as well as in Amman from March to September of the same year.
Finally, I want to include the various commissions which were formed during the campaign and were all commanded by Kress von Kressenstein until mid 1918.

the Desert Command (formed by two Regiments of the 10. Infantry Division)
16.02.15 İbn 15.03.15 Kal’at en Nehl 19.03.15 Cebel Heydân 22.03.16 Kal’at en Nehl 25.03.15 İbn __.04.15 Bi’r Hassâna 29.12.15 || (became part of the 1. Expeditionary Force)

1. Expeditionary Force (in army corps status)(the former Desert Command)
29.12.15 Bi’r Hassâna __.01.15 Kuds eş Şerîf (the Lazarist Hospice of Saint Paul) 02.01.16 Bî’r es Seb’a __.04.16 el Arîş 17.04.16 Bî’r el Mezâr 19.04.16 Bî’r el Abd 21.04.16 Hûzâ 23.04.16 Bî’r el Abd 25.06.16 Bî’r el Mezâr 11.07.16 el Arîş 15.07.16 Bî’r el Mezâr 18.07.16 Bîr el Abd 21.07.16 ebu Gurâb 06.08.16 Bî’r el Abd 08.08.16 Bî’r el Mezâr 11.08.16 el Arîş 10.11.16 Tel eş Şerîa 02.12.16 Ayn Kerîm (Gorny Monastery) 01.01.17 Bî’r es Seb’a 25.03.17 Tel eş Şerîa 29.03.17 || (de-commissioned to form the 22. Army Corps as well as the Sinaï Front Command)

the Sinaï Front Command (in Army Corps status)
29.03.17 Tel eş Şerîa __.04.17 Hırbet Huç 31.07.17 Ayn Kerîm (Gorny Monastery) 28.09.17 Hırbet Huç 02.10.17 || (de-commissioned to form the 8. Army)

8. Army (the former Sinaï Front Command)
02.10.17 Hırbet Huç 07.10.17 Huleykat 07.11.17 et Tîne 08.11.17 Vâdî Sarar Stn 10.11.17 Remle-Led Stn 12.11.17 Hamîdiye-Wilhelma Farm 14.11.17 Kalkile 16.11.17 Tûl Kerim 19.09.18 Mes’udiye Stn 21.09.18 Dera’a Stn 26.09.18 Şam eş Şerîf (Hîcaz Stn) 28.09.18 Haleb (Hotel Baron) 20.10.18 Adana Stn 24.10.18 Istanbul (Haydar Paşa Stn) 30.10.18 Bandırma __.11.18 İzmir (Sarı Kışla) 13.11.18 || (de-commissioned)

Best Regards, Osman Levend

[Osman Levent]

Steve,
You are absolutely right and many thanks in helping this poor old Turk in his translating tribulations; my "First Force in Formation" (a rather literal translation I'm afraid) should definitely read as the "1st Composite Division".
Many thanks again, Osman Levend

[Peter H]

Steve
Oberstleutnant Fritjof Freiherr von Hammerstein-Gesmold then commanded Masaurishes IR 146 until the end of 1918.
See photo here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1074552

2nd Bn IR 146 arriving by ship 30th April 1918,from ebay seller lincancabur in 2008.

The 146th had been part of the German 302 Division in Macedonia until late 1917,it was a purely East Prussian formation.

[stevebecker]

Peter,

Yes mate, but you have fallen into the trap like some of us, on the mention of the 146th Regt .

In this case the Turkish 146th Regt was commanded by German officers first LtCol Schienholz who died in Dect 1917 while at Maan being replaced by an unknown officer and not the German 146th Masaurishes Regt even if both Regts served in the same area at the same time?

S.B