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Turkish Artillery

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby infantry on 11 May 2012 13:23

Yes I have some more. But I need to find them within the mass of my computer files.

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby CharlieC on 25 May 2012 09:13

Image is a detail of a bronze plaque supposedly removed from a Turkish gun at fort at Kum Kale in 1915 by French troops.

The Tughra is a but worn but which Sultan does it belong to?

Regards,

Charlie

Plaque_Tughra.jpg
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Osman Levent on 25 May 2012 10:49

Charlie,
It is the formal signature of Sultan Abd el Hamid the Second. His surname of "el Gâzî" (i.e. veteran of a religious war) figures on the right hand side.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby infantry on 30 May 2012 10:43

See below image
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby CharlieC on 30 May 2012 23:57

I posted the Tughra image because I'm not sure about the suggestion that this plaque, and another one which is on eBay, came from the 1870-1880 Krupp Ringkanone guns at Kum Kale. There are more images of the plaque at http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-d-Histoire-Artillerie/Artillerie/artillerie-turque-avril-sujet_1431_1.htm.

From my study on WW1 Turkish guns in Australia it's unusual for the Ottoman Coat of Arms to appear on a gun unless the gun was manufactured in Turkey. I have seen no evidence that a bronze plaque was riveted to the Krupp guns. There are a lot of images of these guns including many old images, none that I've seen show a plaque on the barrel or breech. The Krupp guns were all steel barreled guns, it doesn't make sense to me that anything would be riveted to the gun. I'd expect inscribed markings - a few of the surviving Krupp guns do have inscribed Osmanli markings as well as the original Krupp markings.

My initial thought is that the plaque came from a much older bronze cannon of Turkish manufacture. The only Tughra of a Sultan who predates Abdulhamid II which approximates the one on the plaque is that of Mahmud II (1808-1839).

Regards,

Charlie

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby ukturkcollector on 02 Jun 2012 10:30

This is a series of posts on these Turkish Gun Crests, I have been working on:

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopi ... =36&t=7265

In summary, a number of these oval Turkish gun crests (all of which are identical) have surfaced in recent years, however the origin of all of these is documented in the Imperial war Museum (it has four of them in the collection). These were collected at the same time during Allenby's advance in Palestine, September 1918.It appears that two of The IWM crests are mounted on wooded display boards, similar to one the one displayed on the as http://www.turkish-militaria.com/ "Bild(80)"

The French April, 1915 souvenir is identical to the Imperial War Museum ones.

The common connection with all of these is the reference in the Turkish Army Handbook 1916 to the Ottoman Turkish Imperial Army's Syrian Army, as the VIIIth Army Corps - Damascus is reported as having batteries of older bronze breach-loader mountain guns, and these appear to be vintage 1877/78 series of Belgian (8/9cm) Bronze breech loaders, and the Krupp 5.5cm bronze BL.

The oval Bronze Turkish Gun Crests, display the official Ottoman Turkish Coat of Arms, as it was adopted in 1882. It is called the Hamidiye, after Sultan Abdul Hamid II who designed it. Ironically at the instigation of Queen Victoria, who thought the Turks needed an official Coat of Arms; obviously she had some spare wall space she needed to adorn! This came about, when Queen Victoria who gave the Ottoman Sultan Abdulmedjit (after the Crimean war) the Garter Order in November, 1856. However, in the tradition of the Garter Order, created by King Edward the Third, the procedure is as follows: The coat of arms of the person or the ruler who received this Order was hung on the wall of Saint George Church in the Windsor Palace in London. However, the Ottoman Sultan had no coat of arms. Consequently Queen Victoria ordered a specialist of arms named Prince Charles Young to create a coat of arms for the Ottoman Empire. Young came to Istanbul and carried out a research to establish features which would be suitable to the European arms tradition. He was assisted by a translator named Etyen Pizani in his studies.” However, the Victorian version of the Coat of Arms, is very different.

The Hamidiye was only used between 1882, and 1908 during the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid II. And the TUGRA on it is his. After 1909 Young Turk Revolution it fell out of use, and was modified with the adding of a crescent and star.

Sultan Abdul Hamid II, began his rule in 1876, and when he adopted the Coat of Arms in 1882 everything was re-badged; including these screw-on Gun Crests for the 1877/78 series of Belgian (8/9cm) Bronze breech loaders, and the Krupp 5.5cm bronze BL (illustrated above).

Prior to 1877, typically Ottoman guns and other items of equipment display a multi-point or six-point star, and crescent; or a crescent on its own. The various Tugra, and dates of rule are also used as well.

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby CharlieC on 02 Jun 2012 23:18

Excellent reply - thank you.

The documented presence of bronze barreled guns around Kum Kale supports my assertion that the Hamidiye wasn't
found on the Krupp Ringkanone coastal defence guns.

I have a survey of surviving 75mm Krupp field guns in Australia. We have examples of the 1903, 1905 and 1909 orders but
not the 1911 orders. Only the 1909 order guns have the Hamidiye inscribed on the barrel http://www.ammsbrisbane.com/home.html?L0=2&L1=4&L2=0. The 1909 orders are marked with the date 1910 which is probably when they were processed through the Imperial Arsenal. The gun you have the image of is at Red Cliffs in Victoria - a better example is in the Army Museum at Bandiana, Victoria. I can't comment on the 1911 order since there are no survivors in Australia and, as far as I can tell from AWM records none were captured/found in Palestine and returned to Australia in 1919.

Interestingly there are a few Turkish built 12cm Model 1892 howitzers in Australia, most of these date from 1902-1908. None of these have the Hamidiye but do have the the Tughra of Abdel Hamid II inscribed on the barrel.

Regards,

Charlie

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Tosun Saral on 14 Jul 2012 09:30

from Mr. Uğur Dana collection
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Tosun Saral on 16 Jul 2012 22:27

A mini gun presented to Mr. Şehler by his uncle Major General Selahattin Adil Paşa, commander of Istanbul during 1923-25
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Tosun Saral on 21 Jul 2012 05:55

Guns at the fortress of Gazi Antep. Any idea??
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby ugurbey90 on 31 Jul 2012 18:50

Artillery bombardment of Baku in Azerbaijan
[img]http://yukleresim.com/di/DKYG/Azerbaycan_Bakü_topçu_bombardımanı.jpg[/img]

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Marcus Wendel on 31 Jul 2012 19:06

ugurbey90 wrote:Artillery bombardment of Baku in Azerbaijan
[img]http://yukleresim.com/di/DKYG/Azerbaycan_Bakü_topçu_bombardımanı.jpg[/img]


:welcome:

The image does not show up for us, probably due to the non-English characters in the file name such as "ç", I suggest you attach it instead, you can find the instructions at viewtopic.php?p=1264863#p1264863

/Marcus

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Sturm78 on 01 Sep 2012 10:56

Hi all,

An image from Ebay: 7.5cm Skoda M15 mountain guns
I do not know WW1-era or later image

Sturm78
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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby Tosun Saral on 02 Sep 2012 10:34

Ye yes! 7.5cm Skoda M15 mountain guns during WW1. I see two Austria-Hungarian officers on the right to teach the Turkish artillerists.

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Re: Turkish Artillery

Postby CharlieC on 21 Nov 2012 07:56

In 1905 Turkey ordered 18 15cm howitzers from Krupp. I had thought there were no survivors from these guns. However,
I found images of one of these guns taken at the Central Military Museum, Sofia, Bulgaria. The plate on the carriage seems to confirm it was a Turkish gun but I notice that there is an additional script after the word "Essn" - can anyone interpret this please.

Regards,

Charlie
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