Turkish Artillery

[CharlieC]

Thanks Osman.

The list of surviving 75mm Turkish Krupp guns in Australia is now up to 31 guns. We appear to have examples of all the
Turkish orders from Krupp except the 1911 order. In addition there are examples of Rumanian and Brazilian order guns.
I should write this up so it doesn't get lost - the list of acknowledgements will be quite long because of all the help I've had putting this together - thanks guys.

I thought you might like a well restored 75mm Turkish Krupp gun at the Army Museum, Bandiana, Victoria. It's a Model 1909 gun from the 1909 order. I haven't got the marking details yet. I think the gun's colour is pretty close to the original Turkish Army colour.

Regards,

Charlie

75mm_Bandiana_1.jpg

75mm_Bandiana_2.jpg

[CharlieC]

Remember the 15cm howitzer at Jamestown, SA?

I've just received some images of the sight bracket of this gun. The bracket seems to have Turkish characters on the elevation scales and there is a Turkish inscription on the brass level device. Can anyone interpret what this is? I can pick up the numbers "15" and "20" in the script.

Interestingly the sight bracket on the similar howitzer at the AWM is quite different from the Jamestown gun. Perhaps we
are looking at prototype guns

Regards,

Charlie

sights4_1.jpg

sights6.jpg

awm_sight_1.jpg

[Osman Levent]

The inscription on the brass level reads as "numero 20 / A ..... 15 Seri Obüs" i.e. "number 20 / A .... 15 Quick Action Howitzer" The letter A is the perpendicular line under "numero"
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[CharlieC]

Thank you very much Osman.

It looks as if the Jamestown howitzer was used by the Turkish Army rather than by a seconded German
artillery unit. It's interesting that a part like the sight bracket has the gun number stamped on it. It's
almost like there are parts specific to a single gun - this never happens in production guns.

Regards,

Charlie

[Osman Levent]

You are definitely right Charlie. I know for a fact from my late Father that some of the minor parts were sent to Istanbul when damaged to be repaired or to be re-tooled from scratch at the old Cannon Foundry and were carefully marked so that there was no mix up when sent back to the front. He told me that even during the Republican era, it was a standing order or a custom acquired from previous wars that if an artillery piece broke or was damaged; every single little part was carefully collected and marked according to make and type so it could be re-manufactured even if necessary drawings were missing. It might sound a bit odd that such a precaution was needed since Krupp and other major manufacturers always supplied such vital info when they shipped their guns but you must consider the fact that the Ottoman Army also used a variety of captured guns from the Russians, the French, the British etc.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[CharlieC]

It seems as if there was an unusual numbering policy operating at the Imperial Arsenal in Istanbul before and during WW1.
From the survey of the surviving 75mm Krupp field guns it seems as if the Arsenal numbered the guns as they arrived in
the Arsenal regardless of which shipment they belonged to. For the 75mm guns this means:

1903 order - gun numbers 1 - 96
1905 order - 97 - 558
1910 order - 559 - 648
1911 order - 649 - 736

The survey of Australian surviving 75mm guns shows a good fit with this scheme although there are no guns from the 1911 order in Australia.

The thought struck me that if the Arsenal was numbering guns by type, such as "15cm howitzer", then some puzzles about the Turkish 15cm howitzers are easily explained. Trying this sort of scheme with the 15cm howitzers:

The Turkish Army does not seem to have had any 15cm howitzers before the 1905 order. Starting the gun numbers from the 1905 order:

1905 order - 18 Krupp Model 1905 (all lost in 1911-12) - numbers 1 - 18
1912 order - 4 15cm L/14 Hb (not known what these were) - 19 -22
1913 order - 36 15cm L/10.5 Krupp - these seem to be Model 1893 guns - 23 - 58
add 20 guns from Turkish manufacture (probably Model 1905) - 59 - 78 (perhaps some were mixed in with the imported guns)

1. The 15cm howitzer at Goulburn with serial #75, build date 1918 fits exactly into this scheme.

2. The two guns with the recoil assembly above the barrel also fit exactly - they are guns #19 and #20 from the
4 gun order in 1912. The serial numbers on these guns are Turkish serials and not Krupp numbers.

It would be nice if there were any surviving guns from the 1913 order (the M1893s) - there are none in Australia - or rather there are 2 but they seem to have come from the Western Front - if this is right then the serials should be in the range 23 - 58.

Comments?

regards,

Charlie

[Osman Levent]

Charlie,
As a layman on the subject the only comment I could make is that the two 1893 Model guns in Australia brought in from the Western Front might still be Turkish guns since the Anzac were deployed in Europe after the Dardanelles Campaign.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[Tosun Saral]

A Turkish made gun "Kayar Kamalı Top"
produced in 1912 during the reigh of Sultan Mehmet Reşat the Vth.
12 cm, 120 cm lenght.
The gun has the tuğra of Sultan Reşat.
It is exebited 10 meters infront of the main gate of MKE The Turkish Machinery and Chemical Cooperation in Ankara. The security personal was very angry when I tried to shoot the picture. They said it is not permitted to take photographs. What ignorant paople?!! If you gave great resposibility to those who were not even a corporal in the army, they only know to barke.

[Tosun Saral]

75/35 Sahra Topu
A Turkish made 75/35 Field Artillery gun produced in 1945
7,5 cm, 262.5 length
Exibited infront of MKE Building.

One of the security personal appraching angrily.

[CharlieC]

That's a very nice 12cm howitzer - I couldn't make out the serial number but the gun seems to belong to the same production run as the 12cm at Manilla, NSW (earlier in this thread).

I don't know anything about later than WW1 Turkish artillery - the 75//35 seems to have a mixture of old and modern design elements. The gun looks well cared for though.

Regards,

Charlie

[Osman Levent]

The pictures Tosun Bey shared with us are beautiful even though they were taken at a cost of some undue frustration. Many thanks Brother. But now I have a question for Charlie; since the serial number on the gun clearly reads 68, is it possible that it had arrived at a later date than 1912 ? Or is it the barrel used in some later manufacturing because of damage etc ?
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[CharlieC]

I think the 12cm is consistent with a 1912 build date. The gun at Manilla, NSW is serial #19, build date 1906. According
to the list of Turkish produced guns the Imperial Arsenal built 100 12cm howitzers so serial #68 implies a build rate of about 8 or 9 guns per year. That's not a high production rate but sounds about right for the Arsenal.

The thought struck me that the original Krupp production drawings probably still exist in the Arsenal's archive. If they do, the drawings would be the only set in existence because the Krupp drawings were destroyed in WW2.

Regards,

Charlie

[Osman Levent]

Charlie, many thanks for the info. The drawings; if they are still in existence, might be at the Archives of the Turkish General Staff Command in Ankara since the old Foundry has been turned over to civilian care about a decade ago. The only problem is; I don't think they are open to the general public. Perhaps a friendly inquiry by one of the Military Attachés there might cut through the red tape.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[CharlieC]

There was an old thread on the Landships forum about Rumanian guns in Turkish service that came to life. The
following posting is from a Bulgarian (I think) forum member:

"I am 100% sure that this system(75qfKruppM1904) was captured by Turkish 6-th exp corps(15-th and 25-th divisions) during the " Roumanian" campaign in 1916-1917 in Dobroudja region ,and after that was transported to Palestine(4-th army/Exp corps/3-th and 27-th divisions) to defend that Ottoman province, and obviosly then was recaptured By ANZacs .In fact i think that ANZacs captured this gun from 27-th Turkish division which was operational in Yaffa and Haifa area."

Is this reasonable?

Regards,

Charlie

[Osman Levent]

It certainly is reasonable as far as captured Romanian guns being used in Palestine goes. But I would very much doubt that the 27th would be involved. This is an all Arab Division with Turkish Commanders only which was the most unsuccessful and certainly most mistrusted unit in the region. So nobody was surprized when the file finally deserted the Division on 21.12.17 at Abou Dis near Jerusalem. Those units absconded to the 6th Army Corps in Dobrudja and Southeastern Romania were the 15th, the 25th and the 26th Infantry Divisions. The 15th was sent to Trans-Caucasia after Romania whilst the 25th was to be deployed in Gallipoli until the end of the war. Only the 26th was sent to Palestine. Consequently, only this Division might have carried the Romanian guns there.
Best Regards, Osman Levend