Turkish MG Companies
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Mates,
I rearly got to dought some of these figures coming out.
Are we saying that the 27th Div had some 60 MGs or that there were 60 MG's around Beersheba (Birü's-Sebi).
Thgis has been given before;
Source: Lt. Col. Huseyin Husnu Emir (Maj. Gen. Erkilet) Chief of Staff of Yildirim Army Group
The Book: "Yildirim" p. 350
Number of Maxims of the 8th Army in Oct. 1. 1917
Sebi Group:
27th Div: 26
3rd Cavalry Div: 16
Which shows some 42 MG's at Birü's-Sebi.
Other Turkish Di'vs show highter numbers to around 60 MG's but not at Birü's-Sebi?
Could the 2nd Regt attached to the 27th Div, have brought around 18 MG's with either the 2nd Regt MG Co and or the Regt's Bn's.
S.B
I rearly got to dought some of these figures coming out.
Are we saying that the 27th Div had some 60 MGs or that there were 60 MG's around Beersheba (Birü's-Sebi).
Thgis has been given before;
Source: Lt. Col. Huseyin Husnu Emir (Maj. Gen. Erkilet) Chief of Staff of Yildirim Army Group
The Book: "Yildirim" p. 350
Number of Maxims of the 8th Army in Oct. 1. 1917
Sebi Group:
27th Div: 26
3rd Cavalry Div: 16
Which shows some 42 MG's at Birü's-Sebi.
Other Turkish Di'vs show highter numbers to around 60 MG's but not at Birü's-Sebi?
Could the 2nd Regt attached to the 27th Div, have brought around 18 MG's with either the 2nd Regt MG Co and or the Regt's Bn's.
S.B
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Maj. Gen.Cemil Conk " Çanakkale Hatıraları" (Memories of Gallipoli)
Lt. Col. Cemil Bey commanded the 36th Inf. Regt. at Kerevizdere fights.
He commanded the 4th Div. After Kannangiesser was wounded by a MG bullet at the chest, he was made the commander of 9th Div. where he fouıght the Conkbayiri battle. After the civil reforms of Turkish Republic he got the surname /familyname "Conk"
About Turkish MGs at Gallipoli
"On August 7th 1915 at 11:10 I received a 6 articled order from Esat Pasha the commander of North Group. In the last article he was stating that "today towrds noon 12 MGs will be coming to Bigali. The officers and the crew are Germans. They are ordered to serve under your order at your region. Contact with them and order them their positions which you wish"
I immediately send an officer to Bigali for that MGs"
"At 14:30 the MGs arrived. The German officer commanding the group told me that only he himself and a NCO could use the guns. I gave this officer with 4 MGs to the order of 24th Regt and NCO with 4 MGs to the order of 14th Regt. The rest I wanted to send to Wilmer Bey at Anafartalar. ButI couldnt find a way to send them. For that reason I left them behind."
Lt. Col. Cemil Bey commanded the 36th Inf. Regt. at Kerevizdere fights.
He commanded the 4th Div. After Kannangiesser was wounded by a MG bullet at the chest, he was made the commander of 9th Div. where he fouıght the Conkbayiri battle. After the civil reforms of Turkish Republic he got the surname /familyname "Conk"
About Turkish MGs at Gallipoli
"On August 7th 1915 at 11:10 I received a 6 articled order from Esat Pasha the commander of North Group. In the last article he was stating that "today towrds noon 12 MGs will be coming to Bigali. The officers and the crew are Germans. They are ordered to serve under your order at your region. Contact with them and order them their positions which you wish"
I immediately send an officer to Bigali for that MGs"
"At 14:30 the MGs arrived. The German officer commanding the group told me that only he himself and a NCO could use the guns. I gave this officer with 4 MGs to the order of 24th Regt and NCO with 4 MGs to the order of 14th Regt. The rest I wanted to send to Wilmer Bey at Anafartalar. ButI couldnt find a way to send them. For that reason I left them behind."
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Col. Şefik Aker "Çanakkale-Arıburnu Savaşları ve 27 nci Alay" ( Gallipoli-Arıbunu Battles and 27th Inf. Regt.)
Lt. Col. Şefik Bey commanded the 27th Regt. during the first day of landing.
"The battalions had no MGs. Each Regt. had a MG Company with 4 Maxims. There were no spare parts. They worhed very well at the day of landing on April 25th 1915. Later we had spareparts problems. 4 of them became useless."
Lt. Col. Şefik Bey commanded the 27th Regt. during the first day of landing.
"The battalions had no MGs. Each Regt. had a MG Company with 4 Maxims. There were no spare parts. They worhed very well at the day of landing on April 25th 1915. Later we had spareparts problems. 4 of them became useless."
I have just finished reading Erickson’s new book Ottoman Army Effectiveness in World War I. I will post my thoughts on the book a little later.
He did offer some insight into this question of machineguns. On page 103 he states that every 4th company in the 7th Division was deactivated on 28 June 1917. On 10 August, the division activated a machinegun company with light MGs in their place. This created a battalion structure of three rifle companies and one MG company. Erickson then states that “This reorganization was repeated in every Ottoman infantry division in Palestine”. Erickson doesn’t state whether the regimental MG company was disbanded or moved to one of the battalions. From this it appears that an increase of MG companies did happen in Palestine. Appendix C (The Ottoman infantry division) shows this reorganization, but without any MG companies at regiment (one in each battalion) and only four guns per company. This is a total of 36 MG per division and doesn’t explain the numbers of MGs listed for some of the Ottoman divisions. If the MG companies are increased to 6 guns, we now see numbers comparing to the better equipped divisions.
His cite for this change is interesting, coming from an unpublished staff study on the 21st Infantry Regiment. I would assume that a change this sweeping would have been mentioned in some other source that addressed the Ottoman army, or at least the 7th and 8th Armies in Palestine. I quickly scanned part 2 of the Turkish Sinai-Palestine volume, using the dates as a place to focus my search. I didn’t find any mention of this reorganization in that source. My experience has been that major reorganizations are given detailed discussion in the officials, so the lack of anything indicating this change causes some confusion.
Was this change directed by an army-level HQs, or was it something sanctioned at army but decided/implemented at the division level? He states that this happened to all the divisions in Palestine, leaving one to assume that the divisions in other theaters remained unchanged. Was this an ‘unoffical’ reorganization in Palestine to solve the manpower shortage by adding firepower?
Jeff
He did offer some insight into this question of machineguns. On page 103 he states that every 4th company in the 7th Division was deactivated on 28 June 1917. On 10 August, the division activated a machinegun company with light MGs in their place. This created a battalion structure of three rifle companies and one MG company. Erickson then states that “This reorganization was repeated in every Ottoman infantry division in Palestine”. Erickson doesn’t state whether the regimental MG company was disbanded or moved to one of the battalions. From this it appears that an increase of MG companies did happen in Palestine. Appendix C (The Ottoman infantry division) shows this reorganization, but without any MG companies at regiment (one in each battalion) and only four guns per company. This is a total of 36 MG per division and doesn’t explain the numbers of MGs listed for some of the Ottoman divisions. If the MG companies are increased to 6 guns, we now see numbers comparing to the better equipped divisions.
His cite for this change is interesting, coming from an unpublished staff study on the 21st Infantry Regiment. I would assume that a change this sweeping would have been mentioned in some other source that addressed the Ottoman army, or at least the 7th and 8th Armies in Palestine. I quickly scanned part 2 of the Turkish Sinai-Palestine volume, using the dates as a place to focus my search. I didn’t find any mention of this reorganization in that source. My experience has been that major reorganizations are given detailed discussion in the officials, so the lack of anything indicating this change causes some confusion.
Was this change directed by an army-level HQs, or was it something sanctioned at army but decided/implemented at the division level? He states that this happened to all the divisions in Palestine, leaving one to assume that the divisions in other theaters remained unchanged. Was this an ‘unoffical’ reorganization in Palestine to solve the manpower shortage by adding firepower?
Jeff
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Mate,
My inderstanding from the references tells us that the change happened over teh last six months of 1917 and early 1918.
It appears that the old MG co in each Regt were moved and formed as a MG Bn at Div level with either three Regt MG Co's with a newly formed fourth MG co to give it either three or four Co's. So you would have a MG co in each Infantry Bn and 3 to 4 MG Co's at Div level.
This then could be allocated to who ever needed that suport in the line.
But if this happed to all Div's is unclear as are the numbers of MG's flowing into palestine to equip these MG Cos and Bn Mg Co's.
Clearly these were not all Maxims and must include a number of bergman or some other type to build these numbers.
What we may need are the numbers of munitions sent to Turkey from Germany during this period unless these MG's (either maxins or others) were built under licence in Turkey?
Its a question that been escaping us for some time.
S.B
My inderstanding from the references tells us that the change happened over teh last six months of 1917 and early 1918.
It appears that the old MG co in each Regt were moved and formed as a MG Bn at Div level with either three Regt MG Co's with a newly formed fourth MG co to give it either three or four Co's. So you would have a MG co in each Infantry Bn and 3 to 4 MG Co's at Div level.
This then could be allocated to who ever needed that suport in the line.
But if this happed to all Div's is unclear as are the numbers of MG's flowing into palestine to equip these MG Cos and Bn Mg Co's.
Clearly these were not all Maxims and must include a number of bergman or some other type to build these numbers.
What we may need are the numbers of munitions sent to Turkey from Germany during this period unless these MG's (either maxins or others) were built under licence in Turkey?
Its a question that been escaping us for some time.
S.B
Erickson gives the following MG stocks on the 1st January 1918
First Army(Thrace)-nil
Scond Army(Anatolia)-79
Third Army(Caucasia)-24
Fourth Army(Syria-West Arabia)-138
Fifth Army(Gallipoli)-511
Sixth Army(Mesopotamia)-135
Seventh Army(Palestine)-279
Eighth Army(Palestine)-338
Total 1504
German MG deliveries during the war was 1570 light & 30 heavy MGs.
By June 1918 the new Ninth Army in the Caucasus had an additional 307 MGs allocated.This would suggest a lot of captured Russian weaponary was in use by then.
First Army(Thrace)-nil
Scond Army(Anatolia)-79
Third Army(Caucasia)-24
Fourth Army(Syria-West Arabia)-138
Fifth Army(Gallipoli)-511
Sixth Army(Mesopotamia)-135
Seventh Army(Palestine)-279
Eighth Army(Palestine)-338
Total 1504
German MG deliveries during the war was 1570 light & 30 heavy MGs.
By June 1918 the new Ninth Army in the Caucasus had an additional 307 MGs allocated.This would suggest a lot of captured Russian weaponary was in use by then.
- Helen Bachaus
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Source: Lt. Col. Huseyin Husnu Emir (Maj. Gen. Erkilet) Chief of Staff of Yildirim Army Group
The Book: "Yildirim" p. 26-34
" Towards end of July Feldmarschall Falkenhayn ordered me to come to his office. He told me that he wishes me to accompany him to germany for a week to inspect and organize the newly established Asian Corps. ......
..... The units were ready for the front. The infantry battalions consisted sirca 400 rifles. One could easly notice that they had more light or heavy MGs. Every infantry company had 6 light MGs and every battalion had a company of heavy MG with 4 guns. In total every battalion had 22 MGs. The light MGs were all Bergman with 3 legs a barrel without water resorvoir. They were sattled on a short three-legges stool. The disavntage of the Bergman was that they were heating early because they had air-cooling. For that reason they were firing in short intervals. A section was organized with each 3 light MGs. 3 light MGs could mke the work of a heavvy MG. The enemy had more light automatic rifles then germans. Light Bergman Ms were not in capacity of firing like heavy MGs. They were not light. For every bergman Light MG there were 3 service men. There were alsso in need of animals and other personal to carry the ammunition.........."
The Book: "Yildirim" p. 26-34
" Towards end of July Feldmarschall Falkenhayn ordered me to come to his office. He told me that he wishes me to accompany him to germany for a week to inspect and organize the newly established Asian Corps. ......
..... The units were ready for the front. The infantry battalions consisted sirca 400 rifles. One could easly notice that they had more light or heavy MGs. Every infantry company had 6 light MGs and every battalion had a company of heavy MG with 4 guns. In total every battalion had 22 MGs. The light MGs were all Bergman with 3 legs a barrel without water resorvoir. They were sattled on a short three-legges stool. The disavntage of the Bergman was that they were heating early because they had air-cooling. For that reason they were firing in short intervals. A section was organized with each 3 light MGs. 3 light MGs could mke the work of a heavvy MG. The enemy had more light automatic rifles then germans. Light Bergman Ms were not in capacity of firing like heavy MGs. They were not light. For every bergman Light MG there were 3 service men. There were alsso in need of animals and other personal to carry the ammunition.........."
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helen,
As far as I can find these Light MG's were Bergman types.
During the fight around Bald Hill Nov-Dec 1917 the 7th ALHR reports capturing a number of light Bergman MG's during an action with the 61st Turkish Regt 20th Turkish Div.
Since the 19th and 20th Div's had newly moved into Palestine from the Galicia Front these Div's may have been fully stocked with MG;s of all types.
During 1918 reports all mention the capture of Light MG's by LH formations from the Turks but no mention if these were of the Bergman type?
Sorry if thats not much help
S.B
As far as I can find these Light MG's were Bergman types.
During the fight around Bald Hill Nov-Dec 1917 the 7th ALHR reports capturing a number of light Bergman MG's during an action with the 61st Turkish Regt 20th Turkish Div.
Since the 19th and 20th Div's had newly moved into Palestine from the Galicia Front these Div's may have been fully stocked with MG;s of all types.
During 1918 reports all mention the capture of Light MG's by LH formations from the Turks but no mention if these were of the Bergman type?
Sorry if thats not much help
S.B
- Helen Bachaus
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Hi folksjwsleser wrote: He did offer some insight into this question of machineguns. On page 103 he states that every 4th company in the 7th Division was deactivated on 28 June 1917. On 10 August, the division activated a machinegun company with light MGs in their place. This created a battalion structure of three rifle companies and one MG company. Erickson then states that “This reorganization was repeated in every Ottoman infantry division in Palestine”. Erickson doesn’t state whether the regimental MG company was disbanded or moved to one of the battalions. From this it appears that an increase of MG companies did happen in Palestine. Appendix C (The Ottoman infantry division) shows this reorganization, but without any MG companies at regiment (one in each battalion) and only four guns per company. This is a total of 36 MG per division and doesn’t explain the numbers of MGs listed for some of the Ottoman divisions. If the MG companies are increased to 6 guns, we now see numbers comparing to the better equipped divisions.
Was this change directed by an army-level HQs, or was it something sanctioned at army but decided/implemented at the division level? He states that this happened to all the divisions in Palestine, leaving one to assume that the divisions in other theaters remained unchanged. Was this an ‘unoffical’ reorganization in Palestine to solve the manpower shortage by adding firepower?
Jeff
I am still going through (very slowly!) and databasing intelligence material from notes and copies made at Kew, about my area of interest, the Ottoman Army east of the Jordan.
I just came acroos an entry in NA:WO157/717 for the 22nd July 1917 which states that machine gun sections are being organised in 50 battalions of the Hejaz Expeditionary Force and Composite Force.
This would seem to confirm Jeff's info from Ericson that some sort of official reorganisation took place in late July/early August 1917, with companies based at battalion level in Palestine, Jordan and the Hejaz.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Dominic
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Dom,
Mate yes the start appears to have begun around that date but it took time to do the job in all Bn's and I think was finished by late 1918
I would surpose the main reason was the numbers of MG's needed for all Bn's and the training of the soldiers. Not to mention that during the conversion the 3rd Gaza battle started and the retreat from the Gaza line during that time.
I appears this reformation of Infantry Bn's took many months to complete and possibly started with those Bn's in close comnat with the enemies ei British or Arab.
I dont think by the start of the 3rd Gaza Battle (Beersheba) that this was anyway near finished as most Bn's never had the numbers of MG's needed to hold the line, the Bn of the 2nd Regt holding the outer defences of Beersheba appear to have one or two MGs when the 4th LH Bde charged them.
S.B
Mate yes the start appears to have begun around that date but it took time to do the job in all Bn's and I think was finished by late 1918
I would surpose the main reason was the numbers of MG's needed for all Bn's and the training of the soldiers. Not to mention that during the conversion the 3rd Gaza battle started and the retreat from the Gaza line during that time.
I appears this reformation of Infantry Bn's took many months to complete and possibly started with those Bn's in close comnat with the enemies ei British or Arab.
I dont think by the start of the 3rd Gaza Battle (Beersheba) that this was anyway near finished as most Bn's never had the numbers of MG's needed to hold the line, the Bn of the 2nd Regt holding the outer defences of Beersheba appear to have one or two MGs when the 4th LH Bde charged them.
S.B
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Source: Dr. M.Şaşmaz from Uni of Nigde/Turkey "İstiklal Savaşı Gazilerinden General Ragıp Turgay'ın İstanbul'dan silah kaçırması ve Anadoluya Geçişi ile ilgili Hatıraları" (The Memories of General Ragıp Turgay during Occupation of Istanbul by British about smugling weapons to Anatolia and his escape to join to Kemalist Forces)
"On March 1919 the Turkish army had 987 MGs which was not delivered to British. After March 1919 the Turkish army delivered 787 MGs to British occupation forces."
"On March 1919 the Turkish army had 987 MGs which was not delivered to British. After March 1919 the Turkish army delivered 787 MGs to British occupation forces."
- Stellan Bojerud
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Re: Turkish MG Companies
Austro-Hungarian source November 1913:
Most of the Nizam (1st Line) Infantry Regiments has a MG Coy with 4 MGs each. There are approx 100 MG Coys with 400 MGs in the Turkish Army. The Regiments in Europe has MG type Maxim and in Asia the MGs are of type Hotchkiss.
There were however 130 Infantry Regiments and 9 Light Infantry (Schützen or Rifle) Regiments = 139.
Most of the Nizam (1st Line) Infantry Regiments has a MG Coy with 4 MGs each. There are approx 100 MG Coys with 400 MGs in the Turkish Army. The Regiments in Europe has MG type Maxim and in Asia the MGs are of type Hotchkiss.
There were however 130 Infantry Regiments and 9 Light Infantry (Schützen or Rifle) Regiments = 139.