Mates
In the George Auchterlonie diary - Gloria Auchterlonie's "Dad's War Stuff - the Diaries" - there is an entry regarding a burial that occurred 30 April 1918. Written on 1 May 1918 (at p. 76) he says:
"We buried a 9th & 10th man and a German officer by Lieut Farmer's grave."
I can identify all the Australian men in this vignette. They were:
3111 Pte Douglas Roy CHIDGZEY - 10 LHR
Lieut Melville Orchard FARMER - 9 LHR
1216 Pte Norman MacPherson FLEMING - 9 LHR
I am wondering if anyone can identify the German officer who died on that day and was buried along with these other three men.
Cheers
Bill
Es Salt
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Bill Woerlee
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Mates
I am wondering if anyone can identify this Turkish officer - his pic was found in a cache of pix found during the Palestine campaign.
Of course, if you can't identify him, some detail about his appearance would be helpful. I notice that he is wearing a Gallipoli Medal so we can narrow him down in terms of cohort - he was in the army at least by 1914. Since the pic was found in Palestine, we know that he was either in the 7th or 8th Army. This narrows the pool of potential candidates down quite considerably.
There are other attributes to his uniform to which I am not familiar and even the conclusions from these items would be helpful.
For example, it looks like he might have been awarded the Iron Cross. He has a very ornate dagger as well as a Mauser holster. There is a badge on one sleeve while a white patch appears upon another. His leggings are in wonderful condition and there is something dangling down from his rear almost at the base of the dagger sheath. Little things like that give parts of this man's biography.
Cheers
Bill
I am wondering if anyone can identify this Turkish officer - his pic was found in a cache of pix found during the Palestine campaign.
Of course, if you can't identify him, some detail about his appearance would be helpful. I notice that he is wearing a Gallipoli Medal so we can narrow him down in terms of cohort - he was in the army at least by 1914. Since the pic was found in Palestine, we know that he was either in the 7th or 8th Army. This narrows the pool of potential candidates down quite considerably.
There are other attributes to his uniform to which I am not familiar and even the conclusions from these items would be helpful.
For example, it looks like he might have been awarded the Iron Cross. He has a very ornate dagger as well as a Mauser holster. There is a badge on one sleeve while a white patch appears upon another. His leggings are in wonderful condition and there is something dangling down from his rear almost at the base of the dagger sheath. Little things like that give parts of this man's biography.
Cheers
Bill
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Tosun Saral
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Bill Woerlee
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Tosun
Sorry mate, no help in that department whatsoever. Nothing written. It was a captured pic from the official Turkish photographer with copies printed and circulated widely to all men. I believe the photographer was captured at Huj, 7 November 1917. Here is the account from the 9th LHR:
"Prisoners captured by Regiment about 130 including the official photographer to the Turkish Army and a medical officer and his wife who had sheltered during heavy shelling in wadi."
Cheers
Bill
Sorry mate, no help in that department whatsoever. Nothing written. It was a captured pic from the official Turkish photographer with copies printed and circulated widely to all men. I believe the photographer was captured at Huj, 7 November 1917. Here is the account from the 9th LHR:
"Prisoners captured by Regiment about 130 including the official photographer to the Turkish Army and a medical officer and his wife who had sheltered during heavy shelling in wadi."
Cheers
Bill
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stevebecker
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Bill,
The knot on the side of the bayonet or dagger was called a sword knot or portepee and would have a colour system to show what Corps or unit the soldiers was, but this appears to be with German officers and soldiers so what a Turkish officer is going with a Bayonet with a German sword knot is unknown.
Is he a Turkish officer?
Could he be a German officer or SNCO attached to the Turkish forces?
A German Senior NCO would have a bayonet and a sword knot on it?
German soldiers did have Turkish medals displayed like the above man as Turkish officers did German medals?
The Kaiser Bill lip fuzz may also point to a German soldier/officer?
S.B
The knot on the side of the bayonet or dagger was called a sword knot or portepee and would have a colour system to show what Corps or unit the soldiers was, but this appears to be with German officers and soldiers so what a Turkish officer is going with a Bayonet with a German sword knot is unknown.
Is he a Turkish officer?
Could he be a German officer or SNCO attached to the Turkish forces?
A German Senior NCO would have a bayonet and a sword knot on it?
German soldiers did have Turkish medals displayed like the above man as Turkish officers did German medals?
The Kaiser Bill lip fuzz may also point to a German soldier/officer?
S.B
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Bill Woerlee
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stevebecker
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Dear All,
As far as I'm concerned the guy is certainly an Ottoman officer. From his rank tab I can say junior officer (Lt-Capt). He was obviously somebody who cared his uniform. The headwear (Enveriyye or more correctly Kabalak) is tailor made not government issue. And of course his boots also priately purchased.
About the small sword. Well I guess he spent sometime in Germany most propably on job training in one of the regiments. And I guess the sword was a gift from that regiment.
Previously during the early period of the Hamidian times artillery NCOs used to wear this kind of swords and you can still see some examples at the Military Musum in Istanbul. But they are mostly French not this type.
Moreover cadets of Military Academy (between 1909 and 1914)
used to wear Mauser bayonets but again not this type swords.
As far as I'm concerned the guy is certainly an Ottoman officer. From his rank tab I can say junior officer (Lt-Capt). He was obviously somebody who cared his uniform. The headwear (Enveriyye or more correctly Kabalak) is tailor made not government issue. And of course his boots also priately purchased.
About the small sword. Well I guess he spent sometime in Germany most propably on job training in one of the regiments. And I guess the sword was a gift from that regiment.
Previously during the early period of the Hamidian times artillery NCOs used to wear this kind of swords and you can still see some examples at the Military Musum in Istanbul. But they are mostly French not this type.
Moreover cadets of Military Academy (between 1909 and 1914)
used to wear Mauser bayonets but again not this type swords.
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stevebecker
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Mate,
The sword is in fact a mauser 1898 bayonet the type worn by thousands of german and turkish soldiers during the war. I have one in my collection but with out the sword knot as they went out of fashion in the trenches of French.
The use of a sword knot is all German. Its was used and seen in many early war photos of German soldiers. but I am no expert on WWI German uniforms.
But what would a Turkish officer (one who buys his own uniform, boots and helmet) be doing carrying a rifle bayonet with a German sword knot?
Yes it could be a gift to that officer from the Germans but again why would an officer need a bayonet?
I've seen many photos of turkish officers, like us all, but none of this type of rifle bayonet on a known turkish officer. But they are seen on German SNCO's
Again the white badge on his left sleeve is interesting why in the shape of an arial bomb?
S.B
The sword is in fact a mauser 1898 bayonet the type worn by thousands of german and turkish soldiers during the war. I have one in my collection but with out the sword knot as they went out of fashion in the trenches of French.
The use of a sword knot is all German. Its was used and seen in many early war photos of German soldiers. but I am no expert on WWI German uniforms.
But what would a Turkish officer (one who buys his own uniform, boots and helmet) be doing carrying a rifle bayonet with a German sword knot?
Yes it could be a gift to that officer from the Germans but again why would an officer need a bayonet?
I've seen many photos of turkish officers, like us all, but none of this type of rifle bayonet on a known turkish officer. But they are seen on German SNCO's
Again the white badge on his left sleeve is interesting why in the shape of an arial bomb?
S.B
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Bill Woerlee
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Mates
I appreciate the input to date as there is a lot to think about in this matter.
Just a thought that occurred to me as a consequence of Infantry's comments and reinforced by Steve's commentary - perhaps this fellow was a staffer with Kress. Since the pic was captured from the official photographer, I would surmise that it was taken within the two weeks prior to its capture. This would probably mean around the Gaza area itself. That being so, if an officer is wealthy enough to provide his own tailoring [thanks for the tip Infantry] and boots, then he would not be any hoi polloi line officer churned through officer school wearing only standard Turkish issued uniforms because that's all they could afford. That being so, the chances are that he was working at a level which required tailored clothes to be worn at all times. Therein lies my conclusion - a Kress staffer.
Of course, the above is just inductive rather than factual. It could mean a whole lot of different conclusions as well. So just a thought.
Cheers
Bill
I appreciate the input to date as there is a lot to think about in this matter.
Just a thought that occurred to me as a consequence of Infantry's comments and reinforced by Steve's commentary - perhaps this fellow was a staffer with Kress. Since the pic was captured from the official photographer, I would surmise that it was taken within the two weeks prior to its capture. This would probably mean around the Gaza area itself. That being so, if an officer is wealthy enough to provide his own tailoring [thanks for the tip Infantry] and boots, then he would not be any hoi polloi line officer churned through officer school wearing only standard Turkish issued uniforms because that's all they could afford. That being so, the chances are that he was working at a level which required tailored clothes to be worn at all times. Therein lies my conclusion - a Kress staffer.
Of course, the above is just inductive rather than factual. It could mean a whole lot of different conclusions as well. So just a thought.
Cheers
Bill
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Tosun Saral
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NCO Master Sargeant İbrahim Arıkan wrote in his memory book " Bir Mehmetciğin Çanakkale-Galiçya-Filistin Cephesi Anıları, Harp Hatıralarım" ( War Memories of a Turkish Mehmet during Gallipoli-Galizia- Palastina Front) p.217
" On March 12th 1918 I went to Divisions HQ according to the order given my battalion commander. I got 5 German Parabellum pistols. All of the parabelums were given to 5 NCOs of our battalion".
" On March 12th 1918 I went to Divisions HQ according to the order given my battalion commander. I got 5 German Parabellum pistols. All of the parabelums were given to 5 NCOs of our battalion".
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stevebecker
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Tosun.
This sounds like an interesting book, is it printed in english?
Yes I would agree that the photo could ne of a vetern SNCO in the Turkish army.
In fact I am more inclined to the idea that it could be a SNCO either German or Turkish then an officer.
I just don't see an officer wearing a bayonet but I've been wrong before.
S.B
This sounds like an interesting book, is it printed in english?
Yes I would agree that the photo could ne of a vetern SNCO in the Turkish army.
In fact I am more inclined to the idea that it could be a SNCO either German or Turkish then an officer.
I just don't see an officer wearing a bayonet but I've been wrong before.
S.B
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Tosun Saral
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Steve and other mates,
Merry Christmass and a Happy New Year Greetings from the land and church of Santa Claus in Demre/ Turkey.
1- Unfortunately it is only in Turkish
2-He is a Turk. One can understant even kilometers away if someone Turk or German/British. Germans/British are pale paces. Turks are sun burned. A sun burned German/British is still a pale face.
3- Until last 40 years NCO had no right to carry a pistol or sword. They were allowed to carry a bayonet.
4- The cadets of the War School carried also a bayoned during Ottoman period.
5- My late father Maj. Gen. Ahmet Hulki Saral had also a bayoned while he was a war school cadet in 1920's. We still have this bayoned in our collection.
6- It is very hard to find a phpto of a Turkish NCO
7-His uniform and belt is Turkish not German. German uniforms have breast pockets. This kind of belt was used in Turkish army until 1950's. We call such a belt "Palaska"
Merry Christmass and a Happy New Year Greetings from the land and church of Santa Claus in Demre/ Turkey.
1- Unfortunately it is only in Turkish
2-He is a Turk. One can understant even kilometers away if someone Turk or German/British. Germans/British are pale paces. Turks are sun burned. A sun burned German/British is still a pale face.
3- Until last 40 years NCO had no right to carry a pistol or sword. They were allowed to carry a bayonet.
4- The cadets of the War School carried also a bayoned during Ottoman period.
5- My late father Maj. Gen. Ahmet Hulki Saral had also a bayoned while he was a war school cadet in 1920's. We still have this bayoned in our collection.
6- It is very hard to find a phpto of a Turkish NCO
7-His uniform and belt is Turkish not German. German uniforms have breast pockets. This kind of belt was used in Turkish army until 1950's. We call such a belt "Palaska"