Turkish Army medical staff Asir, Yemen 1918

[celeborn1]

Hi all,
Does anybody know anything about the Turkish Army medical setup in Asir, about 1918 until 1919? I'm trying to gather information about my grandfather - he was stationed there, with my grandmother, and my mother was born there. He was a doctor, trained in Paris, and he and his family were taken prisoner by the British in 1919 and sent to Cairo. They remained there until returning to Istanbul, he wanted to become involved with Kemal Ataturk's movement. He died in 1922, and my grandmother and mother returned to Cairo. His name was Kamal Saip, I believe. I am hoping to discover if there are any relatives alive in Turkey, contact was lost after 1922. And also something of the times when my grandfather was alive.

I remember my mother saying to me that his father was a pasha, but have no idea what the names were. I believe my grandfather had brothers, they may have descendants.

Viviane,
Australia

[glaswegian]

hello viviane

dae you have any info as to where he was born?,i hae done abit of a research on the internet about the name,and the only info i have come up wi is on the links below,

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Saip_Ursava%C5%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Turkish_War

regards

wt

[celeborn1]

Hi wt,
thanks for your reply and research. I don't know where my grandfather was born, but I think his family were based in Istanbul, as that is where he went after Egypt, until he died in 1922, quite young, as my mother was only 4 years old at the time. I have a scan of my mother's birth certificate, I haven't yet had it translated - it's in Ottoman Turkish....

I have recently taken some scans of early photos showing my grandparents, he in his uniform, and some that may be a military hospital in Asir, with other officers, and soldiers wearing the Red Crescent arm band. My grandmother was Roumanian, they met in Paris while she was at the Sorbonne university and he was at the Hotel Dieu hospital where he was trained.

I am not only interested in tracing my grandparents, I am looking for information on the Turkish Army medical setup, where they were based exactly in Asir, etc, as in time I want to make up a book of the family history for my family, in as much detail as I can. Also I find history fascinating..

With the name, how do they work in Turkish - is one of the names his father's name, or like in English, is Saip the family name, and also is it possible it has been confused with Sait or Said, as I've seen these names in my research. And I am not able to read Turkish, English is my native language, with some French.

regards,
Viviane

[glaswegian]

viviane

wauld you mynd if we ask you tae put a photo o your grandfither on tha forum?,and pls yer mother's birth certificate if possible,oor experts can gie you some details about him wi tha help of the photos you hae!,and some of our forum members can read the ottoman script,its iylways possible that it has been confused with Sait or Said,cos the ottoman language is a mixture of turkish,arabic and farsian,hence verra complicated!,my grandfither( ma mither side is turkish) could read it,but he passed awa last year at the age of 92,well,i think at this point the certificate you have is the gratest data which wull gie us the answer

regards

willam tuna crookshanks

[stevebecker]

Mate,

I can't find any named/numbered Medical units but these formations served in the Yemen.

7th Corps

39th Division
1-3/115th Regt 1-3/116th Regt 1-3/117th Regt

40th Division
1-3/118th Regt 1-3/119th Regt 1-3/120th Regt


21st Division
1-3/121st Regt 1-3/122nd Regt 123rd Regt- 123rd MG Co

22nd Division
1-3/128th Regt 1-3/129th Regt 1-3/130th Regt

Ithers may help with there hosp/medical units?

Cheers

S.B

[celeborn1]

Many thanks for your replies - I am slowly putting together a jumble of information. My mother's (I think...) birth certicate below. In two parts, they mostly overlap except for the left & right margins, the paper was just a bit to long for the scanner. Hope someone can make some sense of it.... I can identify what may be a year date in the lower 5th square from the right, seem to say 1334 (in Islamic calendar I assume). I found a conversion on the internet between Islamic and Gregorian calendars, it said 1918 (my mother's year of birth) was 1336, but there may be some difference from the Ottoman fiscal calendar, which I guess this document was written in.

I am assuming this is Mum's birth certificate, and we always celebrated her birthday on 1st May. Her marriage certificate gives her age in 1942 as 24, and her father as Kamal Saip (deceased). Her passport stated her place of birth as Yemen.

Will post some photos of my grandfather as soon as I have reduced their size a bit

Viv

VivsMumBirthCert01LHS-small.jpg

VivsMumBirthCert02RHS-small.jpg

[celeborn1]

wt, here are some photos of my grandfather. Hope they give up some clues about his rank, etc

Viv

GfrTrkSeatedDeskSW.jpg

GfrTrkGpOfficersBlgTentsQuTrkyQuYmnSW.jpg

GfrTrkHsebckGpRedCrYmnQuSW.jpg

[celeborn1]

Me again....

Another photo, some buildings somewhere in Asir, perhaps. Please, has anyone seen photos of this place before? I have another one, but the forum doesn't want to upload it - its the right size, maybe I've put enough on for it today...
cheers, Viv

BldgsQuYmnSW.jpg

[Tosun Saral]

Dear Viv,
I am really sorry that I could not help you in another forum.(virtualtourist as Sir Victor)
1- The 1st Cert. has a red official siegel of a Turkish Embassy. It is in modern Turkish letters.
2- 1st photo is probably shot in Balkan in 1909-1910-1911-12 just before the Balkan War. He is sitting infront of a map of Europa. I can not read it. The date must be written on it. On his collar he has the snake -on- a pot sign of medical doctors of Ottoman Turkish army. His rank must be under major's rank (Lt or capt.) It is hard to identify.
3-2nd Photo is shot in a Balkan city. Probably at Manastir (todays Pittola of Macedonia) Manastir during that time was a culture centrum with a Univercity and Military War Academy. Many Young Turks studied there. The building is typical Balkan Ottoman style. It must be the HQ of Vardar Army.
TS's Nota: My Father's home town is Sofular (today in Greece) Manastir was our capital city.
4- Last photo is typical Arabic. That is Asir Yemen.
5- He is not related with Ali Saip Ursavaş. Col. of the Gendarm Ali Saip Ursavaş was from a town in Iraq. He was one of the heroes of Turkish War of Liberation. He organized the civil forces againts French in Cilicia, Urfa and Maras.
6- Kamal or as Turks say Kemal is his name. Saip is his fathers name. Kemal Saip= Kemal son of Saip.
7- To be an medical officer at that time means that he was a son of a prominent personality.
8- There is a Ali Saip Pasha died in 1892. During reign of Sultan Hamid the II, he was appointed to fieldmarchal of Arsenal and artillary. For a while he was "Serasker" commander of Ottoman Armies. Ali Saip Pasha was born in Talas a small suberb of Kayseri some 20 kms away on the food of Mount Erciyes. Ali Saip Pasha builded a mosque, a Turkish bath, drink water fountains to every street in his home town. Today in Talas there is a street called Ali Saip Pasha.
9- 1334= 1918, 1336=1920
10- It is really very hard to search old persons in Turkey. better write a letter to the Turkish military attaché in Melbourneor To Turkish general Staff in Ankara. hbere is the adress:

Genel Kurmay Baskanligi
Halkla Iliskiler
Bakanliklar-Ankara
Turkey

good luck.

[domster]

Hi Viviane

Thank you very much for sharing your fascinating photos with us. I cannot add anything about your grandfathers unit except some very general notes from the ‘Handbook of the Tukish Army’ published by the british war office in 1916.
This notes about Medical Officers:

‘The medical school (Mekteb-i-funun-i-harbiyeh) is situated close to the Selimiyeh barracks, Scutari. It is under the direction of the head of the Medical Department at the Ministry of War, and trains military doctors (tabib), who, after five years here and a further short practical course at the application school at Gulkhane, enter the army with the rank of captain. Students wear a uniform similar to the cadets at Pancaldi [the Ottoman officers training establishment], but with black velvet collars and silver stripes. The director of the school is a German.’

It mentions the system is about to change and doctors will, in future, commence their service as second lieutenants.

There is a book due out about medical services and disease in the Ottoman Army, see this link:
http://www.uofupress.com/store/product366.html


Hope this helps

All the best
Dominic

[Tosun Saral]

Only for information:

The medical school (Mekteb-i-funun-i-harbiyeh) is situated close to the Selimiyeh barracks, Scutari. It is under the direction of the head of the Medical Department at the Ministry of War, and trains military doctors (tabib), who, after five years here and a further short practical course at the application school at Gulkhane, enter the army with the rank of captain. Students wear a uniform similar to the cadets at Pancaldi [the Ottoman officers training establishment], but with black velvet collars and silver stripes. The director of the school is a German.’


Mekteb-i-funun-i-harbiyeh= School of War Sciences (mektep: School, Funun: sciences, Harbiye (not harbiyeh): War
Selimiye not Selimiyeh: The barracks were Florance Nightinggale served the wounded soldiers of Crim War. The barracks still serve today as HQ of 1st Army in Istanbul.
Scutari : The township Üsküdar at Asian side of Istanbul. There is another Scutari in Albania. But is is not called Üsküdar.
Gulkhane must be a typing mistake: right name is Gülhane. Gülhane is today in Ankara is a Military University for Medicine.
Pangaltı : is adistrict of Isnatbul. It is called now Harbiye. During Ottoman Period The War School was in Pangalti. The War School is since 1936 in Ankara.

[domster]

Hi Tosun

Many thanks for the corrections and details, your information is always very useful.

Best wishes
Dominic

[Tosun Saral]

sorry I forgot to add:

The medical school is Mekteb-i Tıbbıye

[celeborn1]

Hi Tosun, and Domster

Thank you so much for your help, and as usual, with part of answers come lots more questions!!

Tosun, I remember you from virtualtourist - what help you gave me at the time was of great value, and at the time I didn't have access to these photographs & documents, so there was nothing more you could have done at the time. The posts you have mad eon this site are amazing, and have given me a sense of connection with my Turkish antecedents, for which I am most grateful.

The red stamp with Turkish latin script on my mother's birth certificate may have been added in 1942. She married my father (who was English, in the RAF) in Cairo, and she may have had to get the Turkish Embassy to validate that her birth certificate was genuine as part of the paperwork for the marriage. I have copies of the letters they exchanged at the time, I will read through them again and see if she mentions it. I know she had to get character references from a number of people to state that they had known her for a number of years. I will see if I can confirm this. I think my first priority is to get the certificate translated. There is another year date on it, (1)331, = 1915 - I am wondering if that was the date of my grandparents marriage, but perhaps not, as they met in France when she was studying at the Sorbonne.

The possibility that my grandfather was in the Balkan War I hadn't really considered, but the map in the photo looks as if it is of western Turkey & the Balkans - I think I can make out the Sea of Marmara & the Bosphorus etc. He did his medical training at the Hotel Dieu Hospital in Paris (told me by my mother) and I have some photos that may confirm this. I'll add more photos in the next day or so as I get them ready.

Domster, your mention of Scutari and Tosun's note that it's also called Uskudar reminded me that after the war my grandparents lived in Uskudar. My mother once told my sister-in-law that she remembered hearing the songs of the boatmen of the Bosphorus - she would have been lees than 4 years old.

I must go, will post again later
Regards to you all

Viviane

[glaswegian]

viviane

if you zoom in on the phot, you will see that the map in the photo is a map o EUROPA,including,UK,GERMANY FRANCE,HOLLAND,BELGUIM,....

regards

william