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Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Thales on 25 May 2009 10:12

Geetings to all as I am new to this particular forum.

Having studied the well informed posts here, I am wondering if those with access to the Turkish Official Histories or other Ottoman sources might be able to provide some insights on the deployment of machine guns by the Ottoman 12 Division on or around 21 August, 1915. I first posted this on another forum but there were no responses, so this may be breaking new ground.

We know from the OB chart that in the sector occupied by 12 Division, there were 2 German machine guns under the command of the Bursa Jandarma and a further 4 under the command of 36 Infantry Regiment making six in all.

In a recent posting on another forum, jwsleser has confirmed that the Bursa Jandarma had been reduced to 2 companies at about that time. The chart from the Turkish OH dated 27 August shows them to be situated towards the southern area of Ismailoglu Tepe, and if it is safe to assume the 2 German machine guns were in the same area on 21st, it would certainly tie in with reports in British war diaries and letters of enfilading fire on Hill 70 from the direction of Ismailoglu Tepe / Hill 112.

This leaves the 4 machine guns with 36 Infantry Regiment. Reports in the war diaries of 1 Border Regiment refer to heavy fire from a knoll to the north-east of Hill 70 - grid ref 105 D8 on the 1;20,000. The post-action 1:5,000 map seems to indicate that this had been used a heavily defended redoubt, so it might seem reasonable to speculate that this had been the position of one or maybe more of the remaining 4 machine guns. The difficulty is that 36 Infantry Regiment is shown on the chart mentioned as being well to the north of Hill 70 - between Sulajic and Kuchuk Anafarta Ova in fact.

Could one or more of 36 Regiment's machine guns have been (temporarily?) under the command of 35 Infantry Regiment who are shown on the chart as being deployed on, and to the north of, Hill 70? And do the sources provide any clues as to the positions of any remaining machine guns? Finally, was it normal practice to have machine guns sited individually, or were they in groups of two or more?

Any assistance gratefully received.
John
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 26 May 2009 16:22

Dear John,
You raise an interesting question. The 36th Regiment was commanded at the time by Major Munip Uzsoy, my grandfather. I have an old Turkish Army Infantry magazine from 1932 in which there is an article by I. Ferik Izzeddin (who I surmise is Gen. Izzeddin Calislar, who was Chief of Staff of the Anafarta Group at the time, and knew my grandfather from his time at the Military Academy) discussing the regiment's engagement with the 163rd Brigade on 12 August 1915, when the 3/5th Norfolks Battalion was badly mauled. A map of that engagement from the article, with my annotations, is attached. Interestingly this article expressly states that the location of the 36th Regiment's machine guns is not known, although the author surmises they were emplaced on the frontage of the regiment's 1st Battalion, as seen in the figure.

Reha
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Thales on 28 May 2009 11:04

Dear Reha
First of all on a personal note, may I say what a pleasure it was for me to hear from a descendant of Yarbay Munip Uzsoy. My father was a stretcher bearer with the British 2nd Mounted Brigade at 2nd Anafartalar (he got married rather late in life, hence the 'skipped' generation). In his forays into no man's land he always gave the Turks credit for respecting the red cross, so it could well be thanks to your grandfather's influence on such matters - and the influence of his fellow regimental commanders - that he owed his life, and that I too am hail and hearty today.

Now for the substance of your reply and the whereabouts of the MGs wth 12 Division. Your sketch map shows us that on 12 August 36 Regiment was at Kucuk Anafarta Ova whilst 34 Regiment was spread out between Yusufcuk Tepe and Ismailoglu Tepe with 2nd Bn 36th Regt in reserve. No sign of 35th Regiment. On around 21 - 27 August (the period of specific interest to me) 36th Regt are in the same place (but with 2/36th now in the reserve position there), 35 Regt have slotted into the area between Sulecik and Yusufcuk T whilst 34 Regt have moved slightly further south to Ismailoglu T. I wonder therefore if the MGs were not with 1st Bn 36th Regt as you surmise but with 2nd Bn and that they remained behind in the Yusufcuk T/Ibrikja area to help defend what was considered to be a vey stragically important Ottoman position when the rest of 2nd Bn 36th moved north? Again, only speculation, but tempting.
All the best
John
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 28 May 2009 15:02

Dear John,
Thanks very much for the kind message. It is certainly no small thing that the armies were able to preserve some basic civility in the middle of a very hard-fought campaign. Incidentally, my mother is from Wigtownshire in south-west Scotland, so I may well have had some relatives in the King's Own Scottish Borderers on the Helles front. Small world.

Now you mention it, I am also puzzled by the fact that the 35th Regiment does not show in the map. First of all, in the Tim Travers/Birten Celik paper describing the 12th August battle, which is based on my grandfathers war diary among other sources, it expressly states that he ordered up elements of the 35th Regiment (specifically, two companies of 3/35th) to support the heavily engaged 1/36th. Companies from the 127th Regiment "...on the Kirec Tepe Coast..." are also mentioned as being called into this engagement. Another source, a memoir by an officer in the 35th Regiment, describes his unit firing into the flank of the attacking British troops, but I need to check the date in the book. let me check and get back.

Reha
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Tosun Saral on 29 May 2009 06:39

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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 04 Jun 2009 02:38

Dear John,
My apologies for the delay; the old day job has been busy, with our big annual conference over the weekend. Here is the entry from the memoir by Ismail Hakki Sunata, a subaltern in the 35th Regiment ("Geliboludan Kafkaslara", Is Bankasi Publications)

"The sun rose on August 13, 1915. ...On the left flank of our battalion the infantry firing, which had begun by fits and starts, was increasing and taking on the aspect of an ongoing battle. To our right there was no sound. On that side therew as the third battalion of our regiment. After that the ridges of Kirectepe. That is where the 36th Regiment is." (p.141)

In later pages, rather confusingly, he mentions his company being relieved in the front line by the 5th Company of the 35th regiment; then. pp.153-155:

"In the afternoon I decided to visit Rustem in the third battalion. …By asking around, I eventually found Rustem; he was almost on the far right flank, near Kirectepe. We talked for a long time, …Just as I was leaving, two artillery shots sounded like thunder. Probably the battleships were firing their 15 or 24 caliber guns. There were high trees on both sides of the streambed we were in. The trees were hitting the leaves and branches of the trees…
The shells were falling on the lower slopes of Tekke tepe and Kavakli Tepe with terrifying explosions. Bad for morale, even if not very harmful.
…After a while the shelling increased, and lighter guns joined in. There must have been an attack. At this time the word was passed from the left that the enemy was attacking the right flank.
To our right was Kirectepe, to the right of that the sea. The 36th Regiment was on Kirectepe. I looked over there anxiously to see what was happening . The trenches of the 36th Regiment bordering ours were empty. The attack must be directly against the hills. The defenders of those trenches must have moved over to support the defense, leaving the trenches adjacent to ors empty.
Our people slowly moved into the empty positions. After half an hour word came that the enemy attack had been broken. I immediately said goodbye to Rustem and ran to my battalion.
On the way I passed two companies from the first battalion. They were moving to the right for a counterattack. I immediately explained the situation to them. They were happy and went on. I came to the battalion. The major and the other officers were asking about the attack. I told them, and they were glad.
The rifle fire continued in that area until late at night. And so this night passed."

This seems to indicate that the 35th Regiment was on the front lines between the 36th and 34th Regiments around 12-13 August 1915, if Sunata's dates are correct. He also has some entries for August 21st; if that is of interest I can translate some of that also, or send you a copy of the relevant sections if you prefer.

Cheers,

Reha
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Thales on 04 Jun 2009 12:29

Dear Reha
That is very exciting new information - thanks for the trouble you have taken to translate this source. It tells us a lot more about the disposition of the units in mid-August; there were evidently a few changes in position between mid-August and 21 August.
What is also very exciting is that it looks from the text as if Sunata was in 2nd battalion. If so I think it was this battalion of 35th IR that defended Yusufcuk Tepe on 21st and 22nd August, so the additional information you mentioned would be absolutely invaluable. I have a huge amount of detail about the movements of the units in 29 Division and the Yeomanry on the British side on 21/22 August but precious little about what was happening on the Turkish side and the leaders of the respective Turkish units. Without this the story is incomplete. No hurry Reha - whenever it fits in with your other commitments.
All the best
John
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 04 Jun 2009 13:27

Dear John,
Thanks for the quick reply. I will go back through the book and check, but I think you're right about him being in the second battalion. His dating is a bit confusing - the discussion of 13th August comes before a mention of 11th August, but I think it's pretty interesting. I'll work on translating the discussion of events of August 21, maybe this weekend. As to the trouble, it's a pleasure, and it took me all of 20 minutes once I sat down to do it...glad to be of help.

I also had a thought, which is that on the sketch map, there is a small line of Turkish troops below that marked explicitly as 1/36th - it seems that location would be consistent with the position of 3/35, according to Sunata.

Reha
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Thales on 06 Jun 2009 19:13

Dear Reha
I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say it could be the 3/35 on the sketch map in the area of Baka Baba Cheshme. Not only does it make sense of the narrative in Sunata's text, but in a map from the Turkish OH kindly sent to me a few months ago by a member of another forum it clearly shows that on 12 August 35IR were in this location with 3/35 next to 1/36 to the north, 2/35 to the south of them and 1/35 to the south of 2/35. Hence when Sunata (who we presume is in 2/35) goes north to see Rustem in 3/35, he finds the latter right next to the empty trenches vacated by 1/36. If you are interested, I can send you a copy of this map by email (the file size is quite big). The 2 maps become consistent if the position of 35IR is extended further south than shown on the sketch map and meet up with the lines of 34IR just south of Yusufcuk Tepe.
I think sometime between 12 August and 21 August 5 Div arrived in the area just north of Kucuk Anafarta Ovasi 'squeezing' the units of 12 Div so that they were deployed slightly further south. At maybe the same time the battalions in 35IR get re-positioned so that 1/35 is in the north opposite Sulecik, 2/35 is to the south of them at Yusufcuk Tepe and 3/35 and 4/35 are in reserve to the east by Ibrikca.
All the best
John
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 07 Jun 2009 02:40

Dear John,
Please find below my translation of the section of Sunata's memoir describing the events of August 21. I have tried to give a clean translation, while keeping the rather staccato tone of the original, which resembles rapid journal entries in places. The tenses alternate in the original as I have rendered them here. There are a couple of old Ottoman Turkish words I have guessed at, and I have translated "obus" as "howitzer", which may not be quite right, but on the whole I think it is OK. Please let me know if you are unclear or unsure. If you know Turkish, I can easily send you the original.

I would be very glad to see the map you mention; I have looked around but cannot obtain the Turkish Official Histories in our library system here in North Carolina. If the file is large, you might try saving it as PDF, and then running the "reduce file size" in Acrobat professional, if you have it available. If not, no worry.

Hope this helps, looking forward to hearing from you,

Reha

The Great British Assault (p.159-163)
On the morning of August 21, 1331 I made myself a nice can of soup and drank it. I decided to visit Rustem and congratulate him on his promotion. At that moment 2nd. Lt. (Mulazim) Zeybek Ismail Efendi came by and said he would be back in a moment. I couldn’t leave, and waited. By the time he came back it was noon.
I had tea and sugar. I brewed tea. We worried that the enemy would see the smoke from our fire. Ismail Efendi has been awarded a German War Medal and proudly shows it to me, and congratulates me on my promotion.
It was after one in the afternoon. Two howitzer (obus) shells whined over our heads. They fell on the 5th Company a little to our left. One shell fell in front of the trench, and another behind it. There was a tremendous explosion that filled the air with dust and smoke. Howitzers are different from other guns. We can’t hear the gun fire. It’s coming from somewhere on the right flank. The shells make a strange whistling noise as they pass over our heads. Then they land and explode with a great noise. They destroy where they land. May Allah help those who happen to be there. They are using Mentestepe as a sighting point (isaret noktasi). The trenches on the other side of it are under heavy artillery fire. This is turning into a major battle. The shelling goes on and on. Ismail Efendi says “Things are getting bad, I had better go”. He needs to be with his unit.
The howitzer shells are coming so fast they seem like a constant thunder. Fortunately very few are falling in my area. The closest is about 30 metres away, on the far end of my platoon. From there to the left is dust, smoke, noise, confusion and terror. Nothing can be seen for the dust and smoke. I cannot see how far the bombarded area extends.
A while later the 3rd Battalion companies who were in reserve began to arrive. They are sent to fill the gaps in the shelled trenches, but the shelling is still going on, so they pack into our trenches. There is hardly room to move. With great difficulty I was able to get some of them out and moving. Anyway, it is pointless to send more troops to be killed there. They can wait in readiness a little in the rear. It appears that the enemy will attack. When the shelling stops the reinforcements can immediately move up. It has been two hours since the shelling started. It is still going on. The 7th Company is to our right, and to their right the battalion commander and his command post. There is a lot of activity over there.
They keep passing the word by mouth “The commander of the 36th Regiment is asking for news”. What news? We don’t know anything. To our left those under the shelling are in a death struggle. How can they send news?
After a while a moaning sound began to be head from our right. At first I didn’t understand. When the men in our positions joined in I understood: “Allahu ekber, Allahu ekber, la ilahe Illallah”. They are reciting the Bayram paean.
Dear savior, this is not a disaster coming from Allah from which one can be saved by prayer or by taking refuge in Him. If Allah was on the Muslim’s side he would stuff the British guns with straw and their guns could not fire. He doesn’t stuff them, and they fire as they wish. We don’t have as many guns to fire as they do. With prayers and paeans the firing does not stop.
Well, prayers are from desperation, what can we say?
The guns, not only the howitzers shelling the trenches, but the big guns of the battleships, explode with great noise, shelling the roads and artillery emplacements in the rear. The small guns on the torpedo boats (probably means destroyers, but he says torpido) and the field guns on land, all roads are under fire with shrapnel.

The Attack Begins
Around five in the afternoon. Suddenly the howitzers shelling the trenches fell silent. The naval guns and shrapnel shelling the rear continue.
When the howitzer fire stopped the dust and smoke over the trenches slowly began to clear.
From the right the word was passed by mouth: “The enemy have risen to the attack, let the left flank take care!”. The news came from Kirectepe.
Indeed, behind the slowly clearing dust and smoke, from our position we began to see masses of British advancing. We immediately opened fire on them from the flank. The enemy is not attacking our front, but that of the units to our left. Our flanking fire is very effective. As the dust and smoke cleared from over them the units to our left also opened fire. Now it’s up to the infantry.
All the reserves and other idle forces began to move in that direction, towards the area under attack.
The infantry fire is getting stronger and stronger. At this time I heard that Rustem’s company commander had been seriously wounded. A howitzer shell landed next to a squad’s trench and exploded. All the soldiers in the trench were buried.
The excitement mounts, and we are consumed by anxiety and worry. I doubt the enemy can succeed when all is up to the infantry rifles. But I don’t know how much damage the artillery fire did. The British keep coming. We see this and fire incessantly. Now all the artillery sounds are dying away. It is getting dark. With the ceasing of the artillery fire some calm has descended on the scene. But the infantry fire continues.
The sound of the artillery has given way to other sounds. From our left come shouts, moans, groans and screams, and orders are given. The rear of the trenches is full of wounded and moaning men, there are dead also. In the twilight some are coming, some are going, total confusion. Nothing can be understood of what is happening. A medical orderly has been raked across the stomach at the level of his navel by a machine gun, his wounds are exposed. Sergeant Hakki, whom I first met in the 6th Company, is badly wounded. I went to him at once. “Hakki Efendi, don’t forget me, avenge me on the British, I am going. Give me your blessing”, he said. I immediately sent him with some soldiers from his company to the aid station. Will the poor fellow survive, I wonder? I doubt it. A clean, innocent, honourable soldier of this army. What a pity.
I could not go further to the left. I did not want to become completely separated from my unit. Finally, I sent a soldier to go find out what had happened.
The word came an hour later. The British had broken into the trenches of the 34th Regiment on the hill to our left. Our battalion’s 6th Company got there, joined by some forces from the 3rd Battalion. They drove the British back and retook the trench. Later the 64th Regiment came up as reinforcements. The commander of our 3rd Battalion’s 10th Company, Captain Ali Riza Bey, was badly wounded by a howitzer shell. There are many dead and wounded. The enemy wounded are also calling out in front. The enemy was completely repulsed. The night passed with carrying the wounded and burying the dead. We were all awake. The day’s events had made us so nervous we had forgotten even what sleep was.
Some prisoners had also been taken. These rumors went around by word of mouth. We had suffered heavy casualties for lack of defensive equipment. The enemy had heavy losses because they were attacking, and because of the incompetence of their attack.
From my platoon to the right we had escaped the bombardment. When the attack had began our flanking fire had badly mauled them. These were things for the enemy commander to think on. The enemy made several repeated attaches on Kirectepe. Before that on Yusufcuk Tepe and the Buyuk Anafarta area, and half-hearted attacks on Koca Cimen Tepe. They had lost their chance from the first day. They never made a daring attack. Today’s was their strongest attack. It had us pretty worried. Right across to the line of Buyuk Anafarta, our single division, the 12th Division, was defending the Suvla Bay and Kucuk Anafarta front.
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Thales on 07 Jun 2009 19:32

Dear Reha
The information in the passage you have been kind enough to translate will be invaluable in piecing together the events of the night of 21 August, so many thanks once again for the trouble you have taken. Your translation is great because it not only provides a wealth of factual information but also conveys the mood on the Turkish side. Marvellous.

Once I have had a chance to digest all the detail, the best thing might be for me to annotate your text with information which tallies from the British accounts. Meantime it would seem plausible to infer that Sunata was in 8 company, 2nd Bn 12 Div as he refers to 5, 6 and 7 companies in a way that suggests that he is not part of them.

There are one or two questions arising. The text raises doubts as to where exactly the companies in 35IR were deployed on 21st as it states "The British had broken into the trenches of 34th Regiment on the hill to our left" (which tallies with British accounts of occupying briefly trenches on Yusufcuk Tepe) and also in the final para "The enemy made several repeated attacks on Kiretch Tepe. Before that on Yusufcuk Tepe and the Buyuk Anafarta area" (suggesting that 35IR or at least 2nd Bn 35th were not themselves occupying Yusufcuk Tepe?). It also describes Sunata's unit as delivering flanking fire during the British attack, implying that 35IR (or at least 2nd Bn) were to the north of Yusufcuk Tepe. Also that reinforcements from 35IR went to the assistance of 34IR there. All of this is entirely plausible except that the Turkish OH map for 27 August shows 2/35 as being on the northern spur of Yusufcuk Tepe. The obvious explanation is that the positions of the units had changed between 21 August and 27 August. However, the Turkish OH map for 12 August shows that the northern spur of Yusufcuk Tepe was even at that stage in the hands of 35IR - though the battalion shown as holding it was 1st Bn (see below). I have to admit I am having difficulty cracking this one.

One clue as to the whereabouts of Sunata's battalion is the mention of Mentestepe, but I have not been able to locate this as yet on any of the maps in my possession. However, I will continue the search.

Afterthought. Just in case... and don't take this amiss Reha as I'm sure you checked this out. Are we certain that the calculation of the date in the Gregorian calendar is OK?

I am attaching the Turkish OH map for 12 August as promised

Thanks again
John
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 08 Jun 2009 00:45

Dear John,
Thanks for the kind words. As to your question, I have to confess I am not a historian, but rather an engineer with an amateur interest due to family history. Sunata reports the date of the passage I translated as 21 August 1331; I have not done any checking of any kind, so please treat the dates accordingly.
Thanks also for the official 12 August map; I am particularly interested in that engagement since my father recalls my grandfather telling him he was interviewed by British officers after the war as to what happened to the men of the Norfolks battalion.
Please let me know if you would like any more information, about later dates etc; I am having fun with this!

Reha
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 08 Jun 2009 02:34

Dear John,
Upon rereading your message, I may be guilty of a slight mistranslation. In the final paragraph, it sounds like Sunata is summing up the progress of the Suvla campaign so far; hence it should probably be "...the enemy HAD made several repeated attacks on Kirectepe." The next two sentences then refer to other prior efforts by the British. Reading between the lines, he is worried, and I think rather proud, that this entire sector is defended by only his division.

Reha
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby Thales on 08 Jun 2009 11:31

Dear Reha

Many thanks for the clarification on the translation of the last paragraph. As regards the position of Mentestepe, I have posted a message on another forum asking for assistance as they have been particularly helpful in locating other features in the Suvla sector for me on previous occasions. Likewise the calculation of the date, but actually I would be surprised if there is any doubt as to its accuracy as some of the details dovetail in with British accounts of events on 21 August as I hope to show when I annotate the text you sent me.

Meantime, to clarify some of the points in my previous posting I am attaching a map from the Turkish OH for 27 August. Positions could have changed between 21 August and 27 August, and indeed one has to keep an open mind as to the accuracy of the OH maps themselves as you can spot inaccuracies in the positioning of the features sometimes. Incidentally I too have great problems in getting access to the Turkish OH, or specifically 'Birinci Dünya Harbinde Turk harbi Çanakkale Cephesi Harekâti (Harziran 1915 – Ocak 1916) Vncu Cilt 3ncü Kitap'. All the information I have from them is thanks to the goodwill of others and I would give my eye teeth for a copy.

All the best
John
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Re: Machine Guns - Ottoman 12 Div at Suvla

Postby turcoscot on 08 Jun 2009 14:20

Hello John,
Thanks for the note. I had a brief look at the Sunata book based on your last message. Sunata was in the 6th Company, 2/35th; there is a rather amusing anecdote where he has an argument with a colonel as to who is supposed to be in that sector of the line, and a staff major rides up and tells the colonel the subaltern is right. He does not describe anything very exciting in the way of major attacks between August 21 and September 3, except for an aborted night raid he was told to lead on Sulecik Farm, which the British had fortified with several machine guns and which apparently caused considerable inconvenience on the Turkish side. I can easily send you those translations if you like.
I look forward to your annotation of the previous material; please raise any questions you have so I can go back and check in more detail if needed.
As to the location of Mentestepe, one of the members of this forum, gumbirsingpun, has an exhaustive knowledge and has covered the ground in great detail - he may be of help.

Reha
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