Hungarians at Ottoman service

[Tosun Saral]

Turkish-Hungarian relations have a very long history. As ottoman Turks set food on balkans in 1341 they always faced Hungarians at every movenment againts them. Hungarians were the leaders of all Balkan peoples. The leadership of Hungarians eneded at the battle of Mohac in 1526 and Hungary became a protectorate of the ottomans. In 1541 Sultan Süleyman the magnifivcent annexed hungar. The Turkish rule contunid till 1686. During this long relationship many hungarians worked for ottomans. Hungarians is a turcic folk who come from Middel asia with Hun Turks.They speak a stange language having no similarity with European languages. They speak a turkic dialect of Ural Altay language group. They have only a relation to Finland which is also once an old turkic folk.

[Tosun Saral]

İbrahim Müteferrika (Kaloşvar in Erdely/Transsilvania, 1574- Istanbul, 1747)
He was a son of protestant Hungarian family. nobody knows his real name. He converted into islam and got the name İbrahim (Abraham) Müteferrika is the name given to him by his friends to distiquish him from other İbrahims. It means that a person doing the take and go of the vezir. something like bote. In 1729 he founded the first press house in Ottoman empire and published the first book in Turkish language ever printed in the empire. before him there was surely press houses for christian citizens but not for Turks. The first turkish book vas a dictionary of Vankulu.

[Peter H]

Did Hungarian officers have preference with Austro-Hungarian liason officers etc sent to Turkey in WW1?

[Tosun Saral]

Great Hungarian Hero Thökely Imre the King of Middle Hungary and Erdely(Transilvania)
The Great son of Hungary war also an Emre/Imre. We Turks have also the name Emre which means "Lover" His signature had the following verse:
"Muhibbi Al- i Osmanim, itaat uzereyim emre
Kral-i Orta Macarim, ki namim Tokeli Emre"

to English: The following verse is written in his seal/Tugra:
"I am a friend of Great Ottoman Family. I am at their service/order.
I am the King of Middle Hungary. I am called Tokeli Emre"

Sein Tugra/Unterschrift lautet zu deutsch:
"Ich bin ein Freund der Grosse Osmanische Familie, ich bin unter Ihren Befehl.
Ich bin der Koenig von Mitteren Ungarn, Ich heisse Toekeli Emre"

Fuelek/Fulek/Fil'akovo
Fuelek Castle : Beginning of the End

The Fulek Castle is located between Hungarian- Slovakian border where Nógrád and Gömör Rivers meet. “Fülek” means “a hiding place” or “a fortification” which was derived from Celtic word “Fulaku”. During Ottoman administration, this fort was accepted as a bit problematic due to its Catholic Hungarian and German settlers.

The Fulek Castle is a rarely known place despite its importance on Turkish history. It was governed by several administrations. Finally, it was re-conquered by Imre Tökeli, the Protestant Hungarian King who was appreciated by the Turkish authorities of the era, in September 10, 1682. By the conquest of the Fulek Castle, Imre was appointed as the Hungarian King by the Pasha of Budin.
We can consider this date as the beginning of the end of Ottoman Turkish Empire. Beginning of all defeats and reteads until August 22nd 1922. As it is commanly known in the next year in 1683 Turks were defeated infront of Vienna and lost all Hungary and Beograd.
The Turkish traveller and historian Evliya Celebi gives very good informaton about Fuelek in his book "Seyahatname" (Travels) vol.11 p.32 He says that Fuelek had 3oo woodens houses in the castle and 700 dwellings at its varos.
Turkish historian Pecevi wrotes a very interesting story how Turks conquered Fuelek. One night a soldier called Hasan climbs to the wall of the castle by means of a ledder and pushes back the artillary gun on a window with his forehead and jumps inside the castle. He then opens the main door.

[Fliegende Untertasse]

They speak a turkic dialect of Ural Altay language group.

Hungarian immediate language family is Ugric and certainly not Turkic.

And just for the record :
"Ural Altay" was just work hypothesis that Matias Castrén , the founder of Fenno-ugristics and one of the pioneers of comparative linguistics , used during his 1845-49 Siberian expedition . He never managed to find any real evidence to support this pet theory of his. The concept and further study of "Ural-Altaic" was largely abandoned by historical linguistic community after Castréns death in 1852.

Various factions with political or national-romantic motives were trying to keep "Ural-Altaic"(a.k.a. "turanian" ) approach alive though. But did it play any relevant role in late Ottoman politics ?

They have only a relation to Finland which is also once an old turkic folk.

There have been Hungarian national-romantics who support idea of Turkish-Hungarian relationship, but these individuals usually deny the Fenno-ugrian connection. They don't really like the idea of "fish smelling hillbillies" as their relatives.

And there is no popular legend or tradition of "old turkic folk" among Fennic peoples, not in Finland at least
( "Connection with those lowly Mongols" has been a polpular anecdote since it was made up in 1840's , but Turks are ignored here ) - not that it probably matters in this historical context.

[Tosun Saral]

Mate, I assume that you are Finnish? Now ı am having my sommer holidays in Turkish Med coast in Alanya. as soon as I return to Ankara ı will answer you. But first ı want to give you two little sentences pure Turkish as the back of my right hand.
Hungarian:
"a zsebemben sok alma van"

Turkish.(Cebimde çok elma var)

which means in English "I have manyy apples in my pocket"
(çebimde manny elma there are)

Recenty I was invited to a reception at the Austrian Embassy in Ankara where I met a very old college of mine the old Turkish Consil to Finland. He told me another sentence in Finnish that I already swollowed my tonque. I knew that Finns were also a Turkic tribe but I didnt had the change to search the similarities.

(Minun unaohtamaton nukku sinun olkoon"
In Turkish:
"Benim unutulmayan uykum senin olsun"

German(Mein unvergessbarer Traum Dein sein)

English: (My not forgettable dream be yours"
cheers
Tosun Saral
Turkish Hungarian Friendship Society in Ankara,
Secratary

[Tosun Saral]

Macar Osman Paşa ( master sergeant Adolf Farkas, some sourses say Sandor Farkas)
Some says that He was an hungarian jew who served in the revulutions army of Kossuth againts austrian habsburger. After the defeat he assiled to Turkey in 1848 and joined the ottoman Army. he converted into islam and got the naME Osman Nihali. he merried to Emine Rıfati Hanım the doughter of İzmirli Nuri Bey the stempel bearer of Grand Vezier Keçeçizade Fuat Paşa. They had a doughter called. Nigar hanım. Nigar hanım is the first Turkish women ever published a poem book written in turkish. Nigar Hanım died in İstanbul in 1918.
Hanım means lady.
The grand son of osman Paşa says that he was borned in 1830 in Nagyvarad in Erdely, but hungarians belived that in 1823. he fought at Kirim war as the aide-de-champs of Ömer paşa the commander in chief of Ottoman turkish armies who was also an Hungarian. In july 20 1888 he was made a paşa.
No picture. ı add the pix of Nigar hanım.

[Tosun Saral]

Serdar-ı Ekrem (commander-in-chief of the Sultan) Ömer Lütfü Paşa whose birth name was Mihajlo Latas (Serbian: Михајло Латас). He is also known as Michael Latas, Michael Lats and Michael Lattus. Famous nobel price winner Ivo Andric says that he was a serbian. some say that croatian and some say croatian- hungarian.
Never mind he was a great Turk.[*]


[*] "Turk is not the name of a nation but the name of a union of great men" A quatation of Mustafa kemal Atatürk

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... s%3Disch:1

[Tosun Saral]

György Kmety (Felsőpokorágy, May 24, 1813 – London, April 25, 1865) was a general in the Hungarian army, and in the Turkish army under the name Isma'il pasha.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=uk

[Tosun Saral]

Did Hungarian officers have preference with Austro-Hungarian liason officers etc sent to Turkey in WW1?

Sure they did. ı will post later when ı return to Ankara

An unknown Hungarian officer during WW1. He fought with the Turks during WW1. Later in 1922 he was transferred to Turkey again. I found his diary at a old- books-shop and buyed for my collection.

[Tosun Saral]

Odön Edmund Szeckenyi Paşa

Türkiye'de modern manada itfaiye teşkilatını kuran Macar asıllı devlet adamımız.

According to an invitation of Sultan Abdülaziz In 1872 Hungarian Count/Graf Odön/Edmund Szeckenyi who received in London fire education come to Istanbul and was made President of Ottoman Imperial Fire Department. Count Szeckenyi was President of Hungarian Fire department. He established 4 fire battalions and returned to Hungary. During the rule of Sultan Abdülhamid the II he was invited again to Istanbul and made Pasha. He remained until 1922 in Istanbul as President of the Fire department.


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=76091

[JTV]

which means in English "I have manyy apples in my pocket"
(çebimde manny elma there are)

Recenty I was invited to a reception at the Austrian Embassy in Ankara where I met a very old college of mine the old Turkish Consil to Finland. He told me another sentence in Finnish that I already swollowed my tonque. I knew that Finns were also a Turkic tribe but I didnt had the change to search the similarities.

(Minun unaohtamaton nukku sinun olkoon"
In Turkish:
"Benim unutulmayan uykum senin olsun"

German(Mein unvergessbarer Traum Dein sein)

This might be off-topic for this subject, but Fliegende Untertasse is right - according modern science Finnish and Turkish languages have no relation. Also don't mix language groups with genetic background - often the two are are not the same thing (*).

I have many apples in my pocket = (in Finnish) Minulla on paljon omenia taskussani

I guess you got "Minun unaohtamaton nukku sinun olkoon" from some very poor translation application, since it has so many errors, that it is not even really Finnish. Try "Unohtumaton uneni olkoon sinun" ("My unforgotable dream shall be yours").

(*) Check this: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Study+ ... 5254757770

Jarkko

[Tosun Saral]

Macarlı Dr. Miralay Abdullah Bey
Karl Eduard Hammerschmidt

(1800, Vienna - 30 August 1874, Anatolia) was an Austrian mineralogist, entomologist and physician.

Hammerschmidt studied the law, but could not become an advocate. Instead, already an editor of Landwirtschaftlichen Zeitung, an agricultural newspaper, and an entomologist, he became a student of medical writing.

After the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 he had to flee, joined the Hungarian army and fought under the Polish general Józef Bem. Wounded and with many suffering comrades he was pushed over the Turkish border. He became a teacher at the medical school in Constantinople, but after complaints from Austria was displaced. He then moved to Damascus where he worked for several years as a hospital physician, served as a physician in the Crimean War, was during the Vienna Exhibition of 1873 a Turkish commissioner.

After 1873, he became a teacher of mineralogy and Zoology at the medical school in Constantinople, for which he created a natural history museum. Hammerschmidt was a member of the Royal Entomological Society of London. As well as zoological and geological text books in the Turkish language he made valuable contributions to the geological and zoological knowledge of the Bosphorus areas. He was joint founder of the Turkish Red Crescent.

We know him as Hungarian Abdullah Bey
May his place in light.

[Osman Levent]

Gentlemen,
Even though discussions upon the ethnic background of any modern day Nation belongs to the customary and certainly to socially accepted norms of these same countries; it would be well to remember that a great influx of Central and Eastern Asian peoples of various backgrounds have settled the fertile plains of Middle and Eastern Europe including my own Anatolia starting from times immemorable. Whether they were specific social groups, nomad communities, mere hunting parties or armed marauders does not matter; what is certain however, is that they must all have left their imprint on the very living memory as well as the genetic make-up every man and woman living today on these very lands. What we know of the early lives of ancient Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Alans, Vandals, Goths, Burgunds or the ubiquitous Tartars (i.e. Mongolians) are simple passages mentioned by Roman or Byzantine religious chronicles; sometimes as brief footnotes or more often then not, as mere after thoughts to the subject at hand which certainly do not elaborate on the lives nor the languages of these despised "Barbarians". They are often depicted as bloodthirsty clods who have no culture nor any refined taste for the things that the already Romanized World of European Gentry was fond of. They even used the names of these peoples in the form of pejorative adjectives to enforce the notion that if you did not belong to the already "civilized" brotherhood of Roman or Byzantine Realm; you were either a "Vulgar" lad of uncouth leanings or a "Vandal" bent on destroying everything and everybody on your path or you may be dubbed as "Avaricious" if you were a mercenary at heart and tended to count your pennies at every turn. If you recall the propaganda much in vogue in the British Isles during WWII; the Germans were usually referred to as the "Hun" or the "Goth", conveniently forgetting that the Anglii, the Brittonii and the Saxonii who settled Fair Albion during the 8th and the 9th Centuries; were these very peoples who had migrated from what we know as Northern Germany nowadays. Never mind the fact that the Huns were so well known and sophisticated goldsmiths that many a Roman Lady of social standing would sacrifice more than her reputation to own an artifact made by these scurges of the Steppes. Never mind the fact that the Goths who hold the dubious fame of terminating the Western Roman Empire, were also magnanimous patrons of many a Basilica and Church in Italy. Never mind the fact that the Vandals who are supposed to be responsible for extensive pillage and rapine throughout every land they touched, were the very ones who rekindled the Roman Civilization in Spain as well as in Northern Africa for many a century to come.
What must be remembered is that all these peoples arrived from the same geographical melting pot, i.e. Central Asia. What we must also remind ourselves is the fact that when they arrived in Europe; the lands they settled was anything but empty or uninhabited. The Bulgars encountered a very stable society of Slavic farmers with their own well developed culture and language whereas the Alans, the Avars and the Huns settled on the Pushta's of modern HUNgary and Western Carpathia amongst a multitude of Kimmerians and Skythes already well established as loose confederations with well defined laws and social practices. The Goths who joined Atilla the Hun on their quest for new pastures, continued westward to establish their ascendancy in Northern Germany as Saxons as well as around the Parisian Basin as Franks. No wonder that the famous adjective in French makes allusion to "les Cousins Germains" as far as family relations are concerned.
It should, I believe to be a foregone conclusion that originally; all these peoples either spoke a language of great affinity to Turkic tongues as the Huns and related communities or totally unrelated tongues as the Saxons, the Franks and the Burgunds who spoke various dialects of the same language group, later to be defined as Proto-Germanic. But the simple truth that remains in this somewhat unfathomable soup of ethnicity and linguistic Tower of Babel remains the fact that these peoples spent many generations in full harmony and social intecourse within the same geography before each chose to continue their destinity in different lands amongst different social structures. The Bulgars adopted the language of their subjects soon to become their full partners in all aspects of life, whereas the Huns embraced all their affiliated clans as well as local communities to form a new national identity; i.e. the Magyars. This slow process of social and cultural grinding had one thing in common. Each newcomer society either totally embraced the local language as in the case of the Bulgarians or created a new dialect with roots harking back to a multitude of Central Asian and local backgrounds which would eventually become new languages of their own right as in the case of the Hungarians. The Germanic tribes on the other hand, developed an almost totally different tongue by simply adopting new speech patterns inherent in the local idioms as well a those of their closest allies who had chosen to remain in Northern Germany so much so that those Germans left behind along the shores River Volga could not understand a word of what was being said in Germany proper as late as mid Twentieth Century.
As a result, I must say that those "innovations" and "inventions" of the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries whereby totally new linguistic groups such as Ural-Altaic or Finno-Ugric had been coined, leave me outright cold. Yes, they knew and realized that there was a Central Asian connection but they could not put their finger on to it for the simple reason that they did not know what the Turkish language was all about and they also had a definitely un-linguist agenda in their books. To shed some light on this unholy program, please translate Ugric into Uyghurs of Western China. If I went there today; I could understand what was being said and sold in their weekly market place since they still speak pure and unadulterated Turkish. But if I visited Finland I could not sample one word out of their conversation since it is no longer even related in some distant way or manner with Turkish. To continue, take Altai which by the way is an enormous mountain range extending between Mongolia and Kazakhstan. What does it mean ? The "Crimson" or "Red" Mountain. How would I express myself in my daily Turkish if I was to tell you about this Red Mountain ? I simply would say that it was an "Al Dağ" or as it was written until 1930, "Al Tag". Would I say it is pure Turkish ? Definitely yes. But how on earth would anyone associate the Urals of Central Russia with these Central Asian Mountains as far as linguistic history is concerned, is well beyond me. In other but simpler terms; how can you draw a parallel between modern Hungarian and modern Mongolian ? Are they ethnically related in any way ? No. Does Hungarian carry any Mongolian words ? No. Are there any Turkic tongues that you do know of which might be related to Mongolian ? No again. Than how or why in the world you wish to put all these mutually incommunicable and incomprehensible languages in one pot ? Well the answer lies on the very people who had forwarded these theories in the first place. The Russian Turcologues of the Nineteenth Century. By simply denoting that everything and everybody in Eastern Europe had some Central Asian root they were simply conveying the notion that since they were already masters of Central Asia, they also must have certain political "Rights" on their contemporary progeny. The later political goals, aspirations and achievements of Tsarist and Communist Russia are a geopolitical study on this very principle.
To cut a long story short; I do accept that modern day Turkish, Hungarian and Finnish do have certain common denominators such as words, speech mannerisms or even grammar rules borrowed from each other when we all lived near or together in the same geography of Central Asia some millenia ago. But I also maintain that through different historical experiences in different lands and certainly through continuous admixture with totally different autochtonous people in these territories; we have arrived at a point in history where every modern Nation should be respected for their present day achievements and cultural values instead of trying to marry all the "Cousins Germains" with each other.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

[Dr Eisvogel]

Serdar-ı Ekrem (commander-in-chief of the Sultan) Ömer Lütfü Paşa whose birth name was Mihajlo Latas (Serbian: Михајло Латас). He is also known as Michael Latas, Michael Lats and Michael Lattus. Famous nobel price winner Ivo Andric says that he was a serbian. some say that croatian and some say croatian- hungarian.
Never mind he was a great Turk.[*]

My translation from: Hrvatski leksikon, Vol. II, L-Ž, Zagreb, 1997.:

Latas, Omer Pasha, Turkish general (Jesenica near Plaški, 24.IX.1806.-Constantinople, 18.VI.1871.) By descent Serb (Mihajlo/Michael); after finishing Military Border School in Gospić deserted from Austrian Army and converted to Islam. Teacher of technical drawing at a Military Academy in Constantinople; becomes a person trusted by future Sultan Abdul Mecid and rapidly advances in the Ottoman Army. Successfully and cruelly quells rebellions provoked by reforms conducted by Sublime Porte (in Syria, Albania, Kurdistan and Mesopotamia etc.); in Bosnia in 1850-52 crushed in blood a rebellion of the Bosnian feudal lords, executed the leader of malcontents Ali Pasha Rizvanbegović and reorganized civilian administration. Literature: Galib Šljivo: Omer-paša Latas u Bosni i Hercegovini 1850-52, Sarajevo, 1977.

His birthplace Jesenica near Plaški is located in the Republic of Croatia - Karlovac County. Mihajlo Latas was born in an Orthodox Christian family, so he is ethnically a Serb.

I sympathize that great Turk and also many other great Turks.