I would welcome some help on the organisation of Turkish artillery units at Gallipoli. In his book 'Ordered to Die', Appendix C, Erickson shows each artillery regiment as having three battalions of 2 (x4 gun) batteries. These batteries would presumably be numbered 1 through to 6.
However, the sources show that for instance 8th Battery, 5th Artillery Regiment was deployed in theatre at Gallipoli. This seems to imply that rather than three battalions of 2 batteries, there might have been three battalions of 3 (x 4 gun) batteries per regiment, each battery numbering 1 through to 9. This would then explain how there came to be an 8th battery in the lists.
Am I on the right tracks, or had the usual organisational structure been modified on occasions as units became depleted and amalgamated?
John
Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
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stevebecker
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Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
Mate,
By the 1914 org (chapter VII) each Nizam Div had one Artillery Regt of two to three Battalions each of three four gun batteries.
That would be between six to nine Batteries.
The problem is to ID what Regts had six or 8 batteries in them?
So far I have not seen one but as you say there are some mentioned in the records?
Some Divs had more Batteries like the 58th Div which had up to eleven.
The 5th Div had at Gallipoli
5th Artillery Regt (Sadik Bey 1915) 1/5th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2/9th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 3/5th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/5th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
Again my records are not clear on any other units with this Art Regt.
S.B
By the 1914 org (chapter VII) each Nizam Div had one Artillery Regt of two to three Battalions each of three four gun batteries.
That would be between six to nine Batteries.
The problem is to ID what Regts had six or 8 batteries in them?
So far I have not seen one but as you say there are some mentioned in the records?
Some Divs had more Batteries like the 58th Div which had up to eleven.
The 5th Div had at Gallipoli
5th Artillery Regt (Sadik Bey 1915) 1/5th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2/9th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 3/5th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/5th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
Again my records are not clear on any other units with this Art Regt.
S.B
Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
The paper organization of an Ottoman artillery regiment was three battalions of three batteries, each battery with 4 guns. Batteries were numbered consecutively 1-9 in the regiment. Total authorization was 36 guns.
After the Balkans Wars, the army was rebuilding. Regiments and battalions weren’t reorganized, but equipment and personnel were moved to surviving units. The norm was to fill the 1st and 2nd Battalions. A badly damaged 3rd Battalion might be stripped to fill out the 1st Battalion which was in far better shape. The 3rd Battalion would be rebuilt once equipment and personnel were available. The structures remained intact, although how the structures were manned/equipped varied between divisions.
The war started before all units could be rebuilt. Because of equipment shortages, the norm was for each division to have three battalions, each with 2 batteries. A division with complete, 3-battery battalions might give up a battalion to a division with a single battalion to achieve this norm. The units were not renumbered when this happened, but kept their original designation. Additionally, the 1914 mobilization allowed the Ottomans to reactivate destroyed divisions (19th and 20th) as well as build new divisions (41st +). Equipment was always the problem, so artillery was spread a bit thinner to support this expansion.
The Ottomans were very good at cross-attaching units based on mission. So the 5th Artillery organization Steve provided from Gallipoli reflects task-organization and not the authorized structure. Once the Gallipoli battles ended, the divisions would be returned (as much as possible) to the authorized structure. This does not necessarily mean that the 5th Artillery Regiment would remain with the 5th Division.
The only examples of units below regiment being renamed that I am aware of is when new units were created at the national level. Because of the need to have a mix of veterans and conscripts, companies and battalions could be pulled from units and assigned to another unit. Here these units would be re-designated.
Jeff
Edited to correct Aug 1914 norm.
After the Balkans Wars, the army was rebuilding. Regiments and battalions weren’t reorganized, but equipment and personnel were moved to surviving units. The norm was to fill the 1st and 2nd Battalions. A badly damaged 3rd Battalion might be stripped to fill out the 1st Battalion which was in far better shape. The 3rd Battalion would be rebuilt once equipment and personnel were available. The structures remained intact, although how the structures were manned/equipped varied between divisions.
The war started before all units could be rebuilt. Because of equipment shortages, the norm was for each division to have three battalions, each with 2 batteries. A division with complete, 3-battery battalions might give up a battalion to a division with a single battalion to achieve this norm. The units were not renumbered when this happened, but kept their original designation. Additionally, the 1914 mobilization allowed the Ottomans to reactivate destroyed divisions (19th and 20th) as well as build new divisions (41st +). Equipment was always the problem, so artillery was spread a bit thinner to support this expansion.
The Ottomans were very good at cross-attaching units based on mission. So the 5th Artillery organization Steve provided from Gallipoli reflects task-organization and not the authorized structure. Once the Gallipoli battles ended, the divisions would be returned (as much as possible) to the authorized structure. This does not necessarily mean that the 5th Artillery Regiment would remain with the 5th Division.
The only examples of units below regiment being renamed that I am aware of is when new units were created at the national level. Because of the need to have a mix of veterans and conscripts, companies and battalions could be pulled from units and assigned to another unit. Here these units would be re-designated.
Jeff
Edited to correct Aug 1914 norm.
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
I really am grateful to you Steve and Jeff for those responses which help to make much more sense of what I am finding.
Just to make sure I have grasped the full implication of your comments, would it be correct to say that if units are not re-numbered when cross attached, it would be wrong to automatically assume that say 2nd Battalion/12th Regiment would have to comprise 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 4th Battery/12th Regiment? In other words it is theoretically possible for it to be made up of say 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 6th Battery/12 Regiment (or even 4th Battery/12 Regiment and 5th Battery/xth Regiment)? I am trying to work out how much it is valid to infer about the constituent batteries when only the identity of the battalion is known in order to avoid duplication when extracting data from different original sources.
Steve - the details you provided for the 5th Artillery Regiment - do you have corresponding information for the 7th and 12th Regiments mid August 1915 by any chance?
Thanks again
John
Just to make sure I have grasped the full implication of your comments, would it be correct to say that if units are not re-numbered when cross attached, it would be wrong to automatically assume that say 2nd Battalion/12th Regiment would have to comprise 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 4th Battery/12th Regiment? In other words it is theoretically possible for it to be made up of say 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 6th Battery/12 Regiment (or even 4th Battery/12 Regiment and 5th Battery/xth Regiment)? I am trying to work out how much it is valid to infer about the constituent batteries when only the identity of the battalion is known in order to avoid duplication when extracting data from different original sources.
Steve - the details you provided for the 5th Artillery Regiment - do you have corresponding information for the 7th and 12th Regiments mid August 1915 by any chance?
Thanks again
John
Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
John
In your question, yes it would be wrong to assume it comprised the 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 4th Battery/12th Regiment. In the Turkish officials, when the battalion number is given, the batteries are normally part of that battalion. If there are different batteries, the batteries are listed separately with the regimental number and the battalion number is not given (the number of the battery provides the battalion data).
In you next question, is it theoretically possible for it [the battalion] to be made up of say 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 6th Battery/12 Regiment (or even 4th Battery/12 Regiment and 5th Battery/xth Regiment)? No, see above. If the artillery is made up with a mix of batteries, the battalion is not normally used. Tactically the batteries are grouped, but they are not given a administrative designation (i.e. 2nd Battalion).
If the source states 2nd Battalion, and the battalion has three batteries, you can infer 4, 5, and 6th Batteries. If only two batteries, it is likely to be 4 and 5, but not always. Since most artillery regiments were missing 3rd, 6th and 9th batteries at the start of the war, these are the likely missing units. The 9th Battery is the rarest of the breed.
Assigned units normally aren’t mixed units. Attached units are temporary units given to the unit for a mission. The Ottomans did a lot of this at Gallipoli. Batteries were moved between divisions daily. Tactical artillery groupings were created for specific tasks, then disbanded. You can’t say a division had a certain organization for an entire Gallipoli battle.
For example, on 21 August, the 7th Division had the 1st and 4th Batteries, 7th Artillery Regiment. This means one battery came from the 1st Battalion, the other the 2nd Battalion. The artillery of this division was plundered to support other units. The 2nd Battery, 7th was with the 6th Division.
The 12th Division had:
7th Battery/11th Artillery Reg. (1 gun)
4th Battery, 16th Artillery Reg.
1st, 2nd Battalions, 9th Artillery Reg. (initially three, later four batteries)
Two batteries, 12th Artillery Reg.
I would need to read the text to see if I can determine more battery numbers.
This info is from the Turkish WWI officials (vol V, part 3).
Jeff
In your question, yes it would be wrong to assume it comprised the 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 4th Battery/12th Regiment. In the Turkish officials, when the battalion number is given, the batteries are normally part of that battalion. If there are different batteries, the batteries are listed separately with the regimental number and the battalion number is not given (the number of the battery provides the battalion data).
In you next question, is it theoretically possible for it [the battalion] to be made up of say 3rd Battery/12th Regiment and 6th Battery/12 Regiment (or even 4th Battery/12 Regiment and 5th Battery/xth Regiment)? No, see above. If the artillery is made up with a mix of batteries, the battalion is not normally used. Tactically the batteries are grouped, but they are not given a administrative designation (i.e. 2nd Battalion).
If the source states 2nd Battalion, and the battalion has three batteries, you can infer 4, 5, and 6th Batteries. If only two batteries, it is likely to be 4 and 5, but not always. Since most artillery regiments were missing 3rd, 6th and 9th batteries at the start of the war, these are the likely missing units. The 9th Battery is the rarest of the breed.
Assigned units normally aren’t mixed units. Attached units are temporary units given to the unit for a mission. The Ottomans did a lot of this at Gallipoli. Batteries were moved between divisions daily. Tactical artillery groupings were created for specific tasks, then disbanded. You can’t say a division had a certain organization for an entire Gallipoli battle.
For example, on 21 August, the 7th Division had the 1st and 4th Batteries, 7th Artillery Regiment. This means one battery came from the 1st Battalion, the other the 2nd Battalion. The artillery of this division was plundered to support other units. The 2nd Battery, 7th was with the 6th Division.
The 12th Division had:
7th Battery/11th Artillery Reg. (1 gun)
4th Battery, 16th Artillery Reg.
1st, 2nd Battalions, 9th Artillery Reg. (initially three, later four batteries)
Two batteries, 12th Artillery Reg.
I would need to read the text to see if I can determine more battery numbers.
This info is from the Turkish WWI officials (vol V, part 3).
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
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stevebecker
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Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
Mate,
I agree with the above statement as we can never be sure that each Regt had the right Batteries in them at any time?
7th Artillery should have these batteries as per its ToO;
7th Artillery Regt - LtCol Salih Ulvi 1/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 3/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
Jan 1917 - 13th Artillery Regt 6xbty's
Dec 1917 - 1M/14th FA Bty 1/13th FA Bty
The 12th Artillery regt is shown as this in the ToO;
12th Artillery Regt 1/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 3/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
Others remain unsure because the 1st Div 1st Artillery Regt is shown as having only five Batteries as is the 3rd Div 3rd Artillery Regt and 4 Div 4th Artillery Regt.
Cheers
S.B
I agree with the above statement as we can never be sure that each Regt had the right Batteries in them at any time?
7th Artillery should have these batteries as per its ToO;
7th Artillery Regt - LtCol Salih Ulvi 1/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 3/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/7th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
Jan 1917 - 13th Artillery Regt 6xbty's
Dec 1917 - 1M/14th FA Bty 1/13th FA Bty
The 12th Artillery regt is shown as this in the ToO;
12th Artillery Regt 1/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 3/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/12th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
Others remain unsure because the 1st Div 1st Artillery Regt is shown as having only five Batteries as is the 3rd Div 3rd Artillery Regt and 4 Div 4th Artillery Regt.
Cheers
S.B
Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
Jeff and Steve
Once more, many thanks for clarification of the issues raised. I can now go back to my spreadsheets to make sure there are no unwarranted assumptions.
One of your examples Jeff was the artillery batteries deployed with the 7th Division on 21 August. This is actually the very date I am interested in. It is reassuring to see that you have listed 1st Battery, 7th Regiment and 4th Battery, 7th Regiment – as per the OB chart you were kind enough to send me some while ago. There was a potential anomaly here as the plate in the TGS OH for 21 August (incorrectly captioned 27 August) shows 1st and 5th Batteries, 7th Regiment grouped together as a “Battalion” SW of Buyuk Anafarta. I had regarded the version in the OB chart as the more reliable, and it seems that you have as well.
Steve - are the majority of field guns as at 21 August likey to have been 77mm QF?
Thanks again
John
Once more, many thanks for clarification of the issues raised. I can now go back to my spreadsheets to make sure there are no unwarranted assumptions.
One of your examples Jeff was the artillery batteries deployed with the 7th Division on 21 August. This is actually the very date I am interested in. It is reassuring to see that you have listed 1st Battery, 7th Regiment and 4th Battery, 7th Regiment – as per the OB chart you were kind enough to send me some while ago. There was a potential anomaly here as the plate in the TGS OH for 21 August (incorrectly captioned 27 August) shows 1st and 5th Batteries, 7th Regiment grouped together as a “Battalion” SW of Buyuk Anafarta. I had regarded the version in the OB chart as the more reliable, and it seems that you have as well.
Steve - are the majority of field guns as at 21 August likey to have been 77mm QF?
Thanks again
John
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stevebecker
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Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
Mate,
Yes as far as I can see the German 77mm QF appears to be the main gun in all Field Batteries. while the German 75 appears to be the main Mountain Gun.
There is a list of what Guns Turkey was given both before the war and during in the main coments area.
I transpose from that list;
"This is the list I made during my studies (from various sources). I'm not sure it is complete. I think that Turkish members can correct it easily.
a] bought before WW1
7.5cm Feldkanone L/30 Krupp M 03 (648 guns)
7.5cm Feldkanone L/30 Krupp M 10 (88 guns - 40 of a lighter model for horse artillery)
7.5cm Gebirgskanone L/14 Krupp M 05 (146 guns)
7.5cm Gebirgskanone L/16 Rheinmetall M 10 (1 battery for test)
7.5cm Gebirgskanone L/16.7 Schneider M.P.D. (108 guns)
15cm Haubitze L/14 Krupp [1905] (18 howitzers)
10.5cm Belagerungskanone L/30 Krupp [1905] (18 guns)
b] German guns delivered during WW1 - 559 in total
7,5cm-Gebirgsgeschütz M 1914 L/16 Rheinmetall (18 guns)
7,7cm Gebirgskanone M 1915 L/17 Rheinmetall (7 batteries)
7.7cm Feldkanone 96 n/A L/27 Krupp/Erhardt
7.7cm Feldkanone 16 L/35 Rheinmetall
10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze 98/09 L/16 Krupp
10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze 16 L/22 Rheinmetall
10,5cm-Gebirgshaubitze L/12 Krupp (2 batteries)
15cm schwere Feldhaubitze 13 L/14
c] Austrian guns delivered during the WW1
7,5cm M. 15 Gebirgskanone Skoda (144 guns)
7cm M. 99 Gebirgskanone Skoda (20 guns)
10.5cm M. 16 Gebirgshaubitze Skoda (40 howitzers)
15cm Feldhaubitze M. 14 Skoda (12 howitzers)
d] old guns
12cm Haubitze L/11.6 Krupp M. 1892 (72 howitzers)
7.5cm Feldkanone L/27 Krupp M 1873
87mm Feldkanone L/24 Krupp M 1873
7.5cm Gebirgskanone M 1873
7cm Gebirgsgeschütz M 1890
e] captured guns
many Russian and British guns and some French guns were captured: some of them were used by Turkish Army
Many of the guns a] and d] were lost during Balkan Wars."
The heavier guns (105 and above) were kept at Army level in batteries, there are harder to find in the records.
Cheers
S.B
Yes as far as I can see the German 77mm QF appears to be the main gun in all Field Batteries. while the German 75 appears to be the main Mountain Gun.
There is a list of what Guns Turkey was given both before the war and during in the main coments area.
I transpose from that list;
"This is the list I made during my studies (from various sources). I'm not sure it is complete. I think that Turkish members can correct it easily.
a] bought before WW1
7.5cm Feldkanone L/30 Krupp M 03 (648 guns)
7.5cm Feldkanone L/30 Krupp M 10 (88 guns - 40 of a lighter model for horse artillery)
7.5cm Gebirgskanone L/14 Krupp M 05 (146 guns)
7.5cm Gebirgskanone L/16 Rheinmetall M 10 (1 battery for test)
7.5cm Gebirgskanone L/16.7 Schneider M.P.D. (108 guns)
15cm Haubitze L/14 Krupp [1905] (18 howitzers)
10.5cm Belagerungskanone L/30 Krupp [1905] (18 guns)
b] German guns delivered during WW1 - 559 in total
7,5cm-Gebirgsgeschütz M 1914 L/16 Rheinmetall (18 guns)
7,7cm Gebirgskanone M 1915 L/17 Rheinmetall (7 batteries)
7.7cm Feldkanone 96 n/A L/27 Krupp/Erhardt
7.7cm Feldkanone 16 L/35 Rheinmetall
10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze 98/09 L/16 Krupp
10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze 16 L/22 Rheinmetall
10,5cm-Gebirgshaubitze L/12 Krupp (2 batteries)
15cm schwere Feldhaubitze 13 L/14
c] Austrian guns delivered during the WW1
7,5cm M. 15 Gebirgskanone Skoda (144 guns)
7cm M. 99 Gebirgskanone Skoda (20 guns)
10.5cm M. 16 Gebirgshaubitze Skoda (40 howitzers)
15cm Feldhaubitze M. 14 Skoda (12 howitzers)
d] old guns
12cm Haubitze L/11.6 Krupp M. 1892 (72 howitzers)
7.5cm Feldkanone L/27 Krupp M 1873
87mm Feldkanone L/24 Krupp M 1873
7.5cm Gebirgskanone M 1873
7cm Gebirgsgeschütz M 1890
e] captured guns
many Russian and British guns and some French guns were captured: some of them were used by Turkish Army
Many of the guns a] and d] were lost during Balkan Wars."
The heavier guns (105 and above) were kept at Army level in batteries, there are harder to find in the records.
Cheers
S.B
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stevebecker
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Re: Organisation of Turkish Artillery Units
Mate,
As a correction which you have seen in other comments areas, that my details on Turkish Artillery is not correct.
In 1914/15 all field Artillery was 75mm not 77mm as stated.
The 77mm only came in after the Germans sent these newer guns after the rail link was opened late 1915 and 1916
So most FA Batteries had the 75mm L30 Krupp while the Mountain Batteries had the 75mm L14 or L16.
But there are many units that had mixed guns like the 39th FAR of the 19th Div.
Because of the shortage of space at Gallipoli all the batteries could not deploy near there Div's, so batteries were moved around, and given to other units.
Sorry but we learn as we progress.
S.B
As a correction which you have seen in other comments areas, that my details on Turkish Artillery is not correct.
In 1914/15 all field Artillery was 75mm not 77mm as stated.
The 77mm only came in after the Germans sent these newer guns after the rail link was opened late 1915 and 1916
So most FA Batteries had the 75mm L30 Krupp while the Mountain Batteries had the 75mm L14 or L16.
But there are many units that had mixed guns like the 39th FAR of the 19th Div.
Because of the shortage of space at Gallipoli all the batteries could not deploy near there Div's, so batteries were moved around, and given to other units.
Sorry but we learn as we progress.
S.B