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Getting from 1832 till 1908

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 15 Jul 2012 10:42

Following the post/discussion of the 1836 Ottoman Imperial Army viewtopic.php?f=80&t=190443 These are a series of 1907 original colour plates that I have been reworking, adding additional information, illustrating the evolution of the Ottoman imperial Army from 1832 (its start), till 1908. I have posted the same discussion here (as these big colour plates display better on this website):
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopi ... 884#p48884

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 15 Jul 2012 10:43

PLATE 2
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PLATE 3
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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 15 Jul 2012 10:44

PLATE 4
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PLATE 5
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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 15 Jul 2012 10:45

PLATE 6
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PLATE 7
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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby Marcus Wendel on 15 Jul 2012 12:17

The images will show up correctly if you post them using the attachment function: viewtopic.php?p=1264863#p1264863
The [IMG]-tags can't really handle that wide images.

/Marcus

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 15 Jul 2012 15:41

SOME NOTES ON THE EARLY (1830s-1850/60s) RANK SYSTEM
The reason why Ottoman Turkish ranks appear so complicated is that the Ottoman Turkish military in WW1 were still operating with a very different logic toward ranks and roles, which makes it difficult to directly draw comparisons with typical European military organisation. The reason for this, has to do with the origin of Ottoman military rankings some 70 years earlier (from the 1909–period), on which WW1 ranks were based. Beginning in 1832, with the first establishment of the regular Ottoman Army in the Abdülmecid I period, which was based on a very different and strict hierarchy from that found in contemporary European militaries. Firstly, the officers were grouped according to the traditional titles of nobility, which also corresponded to various military ranks. Thus, ‘PASHAS’ (Generals), ranked above ‘BEYS’ (Colonels), and the ‘AGHAS’ (certain civil and military functionaries in the Ottoman empire), but below ‘KHEDIVES’ (the Royal King of Egypt), and ‘VIZIERS’ (the Ottoman Sultan’s ministers – who were frequently senior generals in the army). The origin of these various grades relates to the early medieval period of the Ottomans. For example, the title of Pasha was distinguished by the number of yak- or horse-tails (three, two and one respectively; a symbol of Turco-Mongol tradition) or peacock tails, which the bearers were entitled to display on their standard as a symbol of military authority when on campaign. Only the Sultan himself was entitled to four tails, as sovereign commander in chief. The lower ranks of officers were addressed as Bey (Majors), or Effendi, (Captains and Lieutenant). A system of rank within the various grades of titles, more in accord with European practices had been introduced during the Abdülmecid I period, however this was not likely to have been immediately recognisable to European observers as the time. This was the introduction of a system of orders, badges and insignia made and issued by the Imperial Mint, which were catalogued in a special Imperial Album (illustrated below). In the Ottoman military rank system, a multitude of various, rank, authorities and military roles was associated with their own particular order, and an examination of the reproduced volume found in ‘Ottoman Medals and Orders’ , indicates about 407 different military ranks, authorities and roles.

C.A. Norman notes (Flaherty, C. (2011) Ottoman Uniforms of the Crimean War. SOTQ. Issue 147 (December): 16-27.) that Ottoman officers almost invariably wore a 'passant' or epaulet loop of gold lace on either shoulder near the sleeve seam, which seems to have served as a mark of officer status (there are no indications that epaulets were ever attached to these, except possibly in some Guard units - In fact epaulettes only indicated a group of general ranks, not individual ones, and were wore on dress-uniform occasions). Apart from these simple devices, generally there is no indication of any system of officer's rank insignia in use in the Ottoman army; both Vanson and Constantin Guys (who were in the Crimean War, and sketched Ottoman soldiers), commented on the apparent lack of any form of rank insignia among the Ottoman officers.

The observation that there was no indication of any system of officer's rank insignia in use is incorrect. However, to the Europeans at the time, the actual insignia being used would not have been recognisable to them. To the casual European observer these various orders, badges and insignia would have appeared as medals, and most likely assumed to be, without understanding these actually conveyed the wearers corresponding military rank. As can be clearly illustrated looking at the period-picture of an Ottoman officer wearing his rank-order (see below):

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During the Abdülmecid I period, Crimean War observers (Vanson and Constantin Guys), referred to the officers having the epaulet bridles in gold lace, but not epaulettes attached. The Ottoman practice of not wearing rank is well documented. For instance, it was recorded in WW1 that, “in action there has been a tendency on the part of officers to discard all badges of rank.” (British General Staff. (1995) 1916 Handbook of the Turkish Army. Battery Press, Nashville: 136).

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby Abadu on 01 Aug 2012 01:23

Amazing thread! Do you know anything about the uniforms of the turkish guard cavalry before them adopted their 1880s prussian style uniforms ?

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 01 Aug 2012 09:04

Abadu wrote:Amazing thread! Do you know anything about the uniforms of the turkish guard cavalry before them adopted their 1880s prussian style uniforms ?


Hi Abadu, these images from Marcel Roubiçek (1978) Modern Ottoman Troops, 1797-1915: In Contemporary Pictures. Franciscan Printing Press. Show this as the Ottoman Guard Cavalry officer - 1840s
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Ottoman Guard Cavalry officer - 1850s
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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby Abadu on 01 Aug 2012 21:23

Thank you! Another question, do you know anything about the guard uniforms (both infantry and cavalry) in the 1870s? (the time of the "zouave model" uniforms?). Also, was the guard cavalry divided in lancer (the guard uhland regiment) and regular cavalry (the Ertugrul regiment) regiments before the adoption of the 1880s/1890s prussian style uniforms?

EDIT:Could you also please explain a little about the ottoman light cavalry and dragoon units? I never knew they had other cavalry than their mixed lancer-carabiniers regular cavalry regiments...

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 02 Aug 2012 10:47

Basically, all Ottoman Imperial Cavalry were trained as light-dragoons. By 1861 the army setup was developing (in line with most European armies), toward lancer armed cavalry and the Ottoman army intended to have 1 lancer regiment in support for every-two/three cavalry regiments. However, by some point in 1915, the First Lancers (whom had been the original Imperial Guard members - the IG was disbanded in 1908), appear to have been amalgamated with the Ertugrul Cavalry. The 1916 British Army handbook on the Turkish Army, gives somewhat contradictory information about the lancers. Firstly, describing – “Lances are carried by the Bodyguard Squadron and the First (Lancer) Regiment” (p.63). However, later only the 1st Cavalry Regiment (which is part of the 1st Army (p.163), is mentioned in the “Regimental Index” (p.215). Hence, we can conclude that the reference to the 1st Cavalry Regiment is actually the First Lancers Regiment.

THE 'ZOUAVE' UNIFORM
The official designation of the Zouave uniform in the French Army, from the Napoleonic period (with the original introduction of the Mamelukes of the Imperial Guard) was the 'uniform of the orient'; in short, the French chose to dress all their colonial soldiers in North Africa in some variation of this uniform. Closely following the end of the Crimean War, the 'zouave craze' as it was known at the time reached the Ottoman court, and at the same time US soldiers in the Civil war were dressing up as Zouave (there is a period diary reference to New York militia voting to wear the Zouave uniform in 1860, because 'they want to be brave soldiers'), the Ottoman Army as well mostly adopted the Zouave uniform.

Following 1876, the only soldiers still wearing the full Zouave uniform were:
• Regiment of Zouaves of the IG. These wore a copy of the French 4th Zouave regiment. In addition to which, they wore a green keffiyeh (the traditional Arab cloth headdress) under a fez, with it wrapped around the base. This was a common practice in the period.It should be noted that the significance of the green keffiyeh, wrapped turban-like around the base of the Fez, at the time “denotes a man who has religious privileges” (The War Office. (2008) 1915 Notes on the Turkish Army: With a Short Vocabulary of Turkish Words and Phrases. N & M Press: 19). These have never been actually identified, however the US Library of Congress collection of photographs does have a picture of two solders identified as Zouave carrying the water used for purification of guests on entering the Topkapı Palace duty, in the Selamlik – The public reception area (where the Sultan receives his guests).
• First Albanian Regiment of the IG. These troops were dressed in uniforms based on traditional Albanian national costume, which were made to resemble the French 4th Zouave regiment uniform. Confusingly, the Albanian regiment are often referred in modern books on the O-T military has one of the four battalions of Zouave troops. The Albanians wore a distinctively tall Albanian fez (figure 2), and were equipped with a traditional Balkan weapons belt, called a “Bensilan”. The Bensilan allowed for the traditional "yatagan" curved sword to be carried across the waist - hence the reason for the unusual curvature of the blade. These were the last O-T troops to be equipped with this particular weapon, and trained in the traditional fighting arts associated with this sword. However, toward the mid 1880s these were increasingly replaced with US M1874 Turkish Peabody-Martini contract yataghan bayonets. In addition these troops were also armed with M1874 Peabodies, fitted with the socket type bayonets. Both bayonets were made for the same rifle. For the rest of the O-T army, the NCOs were typically issued the Yataghan bayonet while enlisted men received the socket type. However, the Albanians IG appear to have received both of these weapons.

As well, a modified Zouave uniform - basically stripped of its facings did develop in the Ottoman army, during the 1876 period and was used into WW1. The reserve infantry wore this in blue cloth, and was redundant by 1914, but old stocks were used in the open year of the war. An a field grey version mainly seen worn by the Camel mounted regiments:
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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 02 Aug 2012 13:01

Some more examples of the 'field grey' WW1 Turk 'Zoauve -styled' uniform:
Image
Image

Here I have extracted a few elements of the uniform and added period colours:

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby Abadu on 02 Aug 2012 18:20

Very interesting. Do you know when the light cavalry and light dragoons were raised and disbanded?
Also, do you know which uniforms would the Imperial Guard wear during the Russo-Turkish War? (Their 1860s-1878 "Zouave-model" uniform)

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 03 Aug 2012 10:16

According to the 1978 book - Marcel Roubiçek (1978) Modern Ottoman Troops, 1797-1915: In Contemporary Pictures. Franciscan Printing Press. He gives the following descriptions, and dates:
- After 1826: One regiment of lancers of the guard, and three regt. of cavalry (one lancer, and two dragoons).
- After 1828 (War with Russia): 3 Cavalry regt. of the Guard,and two of the line.
- By 1837: 6 regt. of cavalry.
- 1843: 11 regt. of cavalry. As well, as one regt. of Cossacks, and one of dragoons. However, he also describes the cavalry as 'dragoons'.
- By the 1860s and onwards there is a continuing expansion of the cavalry, as Cossacks, dragoons, and lancers.

I am yet to find a clear picture of the guard cavalry uniform in the early 1870s, from a period original source. Apart from the colour plates posted in this discussion.

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby Abadu on 03 Aug 2012 14:43

Thank you, things are clearer now. However, if you have any other picture of the Imperial Guard (both infantry and cavalry), please post here.
Another question, do you have any idea of what uniform did the ottoman musicians (infantry drummers and cavalry buglers) wear during the XIX century?

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Re: Getting from 1832 till 1908

Postby ukturkcollector on 03 Aug 2012 18:35

Abadu wrote:Thank you, things are clearer now. However, if you have any other picture of the Imperial Guard (both infantry and cavalry), please post here.
Another question, do you have any idea of what uniform did the ottoman musicians (infantry drummers and cavalry buglers) wear during the XIX century?


Hi Abadu, I think this image helps - you asked as well, about the 'green hussar' figure (from the other posts), and I have been looking at this image and comparing it to some period illustrations, and I have cut'n'pasted these together. This appears to be the Guard uniforms (in 1828), for the cavalry dragoons, musicians and infantry. The special distinction is the gold tape stripes displayed on the tall -fez type hats (the Fez was only adopted in 1832 as the official national headdress to be wore by soldiers and civilians alike):

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