Van Cav Bde

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stevebecker
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Van Cav Bde

#1

Post by stevebecker » 23 Jan 2015, 03:34

Tosun,

Accounts place this Cav Bde with the Van Jandarma Division in the Van area early in the war?

Do we known anything about it?

Was it formed from local Kurds like many of the Reserve or Independent Cav formations?

Or was it formed from Turkish sourses?

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Van Cav Bde

#2

Post by Tosun Saral » 23 Jan 2015, 19:58

Accordig to Görgülü Van Jandarma Divisison was demolished on June 26th 1915 on p.114


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Re: Van Cav Bde

#3

Post by stevebecker » 24 Jan 2015, 01:09

Tosun,

According to other souses this division was disbanded in 1917?

Van Jandarma Div Maj Ferit

Van Jandarma Regt (7xBns)
Bitlis Jandarma Regt (independent)
Diyarbakir Jandarma Regt (independent)

Diyarbakir Jandarma Regt - Maj Ferit Bey

Hüseyin Rauf Orbay (Ex captain of battleship Hamidiye and Naval Minister of Ottoman Empire later First PM of Turkish Rebublic 1922-23) shown leading a force possibly from this Div (2xBns Van Jandarma Regt) near Kermanshah Persia June 1915.

raised from paramilitary Jandarma (internal security troops) 1914 - Caucasus 1915-17 - disbanded late 1917

Van area Caucasus and Northern Persia

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Van Cav Bde

#4

Post by jwsleser » 03 Feb 2015, 01:35

I haven't worked through the entire history of this unit. This is the brigade at mobilization. Basically the same type of troops used to form the Reserve Cavalry Divisions.

Van Reserve Cavalry Brigade (November 1914-)
18th Özalp Cavalry Regiment
19th Başkale Cavalry Regiment
29th Özalp Cavalry Regiment
30th Hanik Cavalry Regiment

Jeff
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Re: Van Cav Bde

#5

Post by stevebecker » 03 Feb 2015, 02:21

Jeff,

Many thanks mate.

Yes I didn't know if was part of a Reserve Cav Div or was a Jandarma Cav Bde with the Van Jandarma Div

So the 18th, 19th, 29th and 30th Cav Regt are Reserve (Kurds) and so disbanded early 1915?


Any details you have on other Reserve Cav units would help?

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Van Cav Bde

#6

Post by jwsleser » 03 Feb 2015, 04:55

No, the regular and reserve (tribal) cavalry regiments have parallel numbering (i.e. there is a 25th Regular Cavalry Regiment and a 25th Hinnis Cavalry Regiment). The best of the tribal cavalry were incorporated into regular units in 1915, but most were disbanded. The 2nd Cavalry Division was rebuilt using these reserve regiments in 1915. The tribal cavalry as a distinct type of unit disappears in the 1916 Kalfas reorganization (2nd Kalfas cavalry Brigade).

Jeff
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Re: Van Cav Bde

#7

Post by stevebecker » 04 Feb 2015, 02:53

Jeff,

Sorry mate I am a little mixed up here?

18th Özalp Cavalry Regiment - is this a Reserve or regular Cav Regt?

My records place the 18th Cav Regt as an independent Cav Regt attached to 9th Caucasus Division when it was formed in Sept 1916

As to the 25th Cav Regt you use as an example;

I show it both with;

11th Cav Bde

Nov 1914- 19th Cav Regt 20th Cav Regt 25th Cav Regt formed into 2nd Cav Div
and

4th Cav Bde (Res)

20th Cav Regt 21st Cav Regt 23rd Cav Regt 24th Cav Regt 25th Cav Regt

So is the 25th Cav Regt - under command Mahmud Bey

IS that the Regular or Res

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Van Cav Bde

#8

Post by jwsleser » 04 Feb 2015, 06:27

Steve
18th Özalp Cavalry Regiment - is this a Reserve or regular Cav Regt?
Reserve.
11th Cav Bde: Nov 1914- 19th Cav Regt 20th Cav Regt 25th Cav Regt formed into 2nd Cav Div and
Regular
4th Cav Bde (Res): 20th Cav Regt 21st Cav Regt 23rd Cav Regt 24th Cav Regt 25th Cav Regt
Actually the 20th Ciare Cavalry Regiment, 21st Mardin Cavalry Regiment, 22nd Mardin Cavalry Regiment, 23rd Viranşehir Cavalry, Regiment, 24th Siverek Cavalry Regiment. The 25th Hinnis Cavalry Regiment was in the 1st Reserve Cavalry Division. These are all reserve.

Regular cavalry were numbered 1-33. Reserve cavalry were numbered 1-30. Two different groups of cavalry with the same regimental numbers.

I will need to track down the 18th Regiment.

Jeff
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Re: Van Cav Bde

#9

Post by stevebecker » 04 Feb 2015, 08:48

Jeff,

" 20th Ciare Cavalry Regiment, 21st Mardin Cavalry Regiment, 22nd Mardin Cavalry Regiment, 23rd Viranşehir Cavalry, Regiment, 24th Siverek Cavalry Regiment. The 25th Hinnis Cavalry Regiment was in the 1st Reserve Cavalry Division"

I think you mean 4th Reserve Cav Div (as per the list you gave in an earlier post.

A have a number of names for Regt Cav commnaders for the 2nd Cav Div, but still don't know if they were Regular or reserve Cav Regts.

Do you have any thing of Commanding officers just to confirm the ones I have (some I have mentioned in my last posts)?

20th Cav Regt- Abdel Rahman Bey
21st Cav Regt- Ahmed Bey and Suleiman Bey
23rd Cav Regt- Khalil Bey
24th Cav Regt- Derehi Bey
25th Cav Regt - Mahmud Bey

when you get time I would also like to discuss the 12th Cav Bde in Mosul Persia, with any details on the 31st Cav Regt 33rd Cav Regt

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Van Cav Bde

#10

Post by jwsleser » 07 Feb 2015, 02:06

Just to check language. Nizamiye is regular, ihtiyat is reserve. Often in English sources ihtiyat cavalry is called tribal cavalry. They are one and the same.

RE: 4th Reserve Cavalry Bde. No such unit in Turkish sources. I am guessing your info is from a non-Turkish source. Providing full disclosure, the Turkish officials on the Kalfas cephesi often drop ihtiyat or the local regimental name when discussing these units, so you need to track the parent unit. My assumption is your source is for some reason assumes the reserve cavalry units are brigades. All the reserve cavalry was mobilized as the 1-4 Reserve Divisions and the Van Cavalry Bde. So your 4th Reserve Cavalry Brigade is actually the 4th Ihtiyat Cavalry Division.

You have the 2nd Nizamiye (Regular) Cavalry Division, the 1-4 Ihtiyat (Reserve) Cavalry Divisions, and the Van Ihtiyat Cavalry Brigade. Nothing more. In 1915 most of the ihtiyat cavalry was disbanded. The best units are formed into a new 3rd Ihtiyat Cavalry Division.

RE: 18th Cavalry Regiment. At this time I am assuming your 18th Cavalry Regiment is the 18th Özalp Cavalry Regiment (Ihtiyat). I don't have the 18th Nizamiye Cavalry in the Caucasus at any time. My problem is I don't know where the 18th Nizamiye is during the war.

Jeff
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Re: Van Cav Bde

#11

Post by stevebecker » 08 Feb 2015, 01:13

Jeff,

Thank you.

Yes that's my problem with many Cav units as the authors of sourses didn't know the difference and just wrote a generic ? Cav Regt not known if it was Res or Regular.

We now have to clear up these mistakes that are passed on to us.

As to the 18th Cav Regt, my sourse places that Regt in the 9th Cauc Div when it was formed possibly around Sept or Nov 1916

You could be correct and that Cav Regt in the Res Cav Regt and not the regular Cav Regt.

Do we know if the 18th Res Cav Regt Özalp survived the changes in 1915? as its not on the reformed units of the the 3rd Res Cav Div in 1916?

Your right I have no other details on the 18th Cav Regt (regular) but I also don't have any details on these Regular Cav Regts;

10th Cav Regt
16th Cav Regt
17th Cav Regt
18th Cav Regt
28th Cav Regt
32nd Cav Regt

its like they were not formed?

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Van Cav Bde

#12

Post by jwsleser » 08 Feb 2015, 15:14

Steve

I have the 25th Kalfas Cavalry Regiment with the 9th Kalfas Division in September 1916. My source is Birinci Harbi II Cilt, 2 Kisim kurulus 12.

What source do you have for the 18th Cavalry Regiment?

Jeff
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Re: Van Cav Bde

#13

Post by stevebecker » 09 Feb 2015, 02:06

Jeff,

Sorry mate I can't find that sourse, but I will go with your details.

Many thanks.

S.B

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