Circassian Cav Regt
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Circassian Cav Regt
Mates,
This appears to be another local raised unit that was used in Palestine and possibly other areas.
From what I can see there were three Sqns formed much like a regular Cavalry Regt, but that is not confirmed?
Do we have any details on this unit?
Cheers
S.B
This appears to be another local raised unit that was used in Palestine and possibly other areas.
From what I can see there were three Sqns formed much like a regular Cavalry Regt, but that is not confirmed?
Do we have any details on this unit?
Cheers
S.B
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Steve
It would help if you provide a cite from where you found this information (same with your other questions as well). That way I can check the original source (if I have it) to gain context which might help to location additional information. It also would prevent me from searching through a source only to discover it is the one you already have.
I hope to answer some of your questions this upcoming weekend. I just haven't had the time this week (and access to the forum).
Jeff
It would help if you provide a cite from where you found this information (same with your other questions as well). That way I can check the original source (if I have it) to gain context which might help to location additional information. It also would prevent me from searching through a source only to discover it is the one you already have.
I hope to answer some of your questions this upcoming weekend. I just haven't had the time this week (and access to the forum).
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Jeff,
Sorry mate I don't keep most of my sourses as I mine them from all sourses and take a note.
Circassian Cavalry is shown with the Turkish forces in Palestine in Allied records and in official Turkish history ORbats during 1918 and earlier.
I don't know the size of this unit but since it is recorded with Turkish units, then it must be a formed unit and not local arabs?
Any ideas?
S.B
Sorry mate I don't keep most of my sourses as I mine them from all sourses and take a note.
Circassian Cavalry is shown with the Turkish forces in Palestine in Allied records and in official Turkish history ORbats during 1918 and earlier.
I don't know the size of this unit but since it is recorded with Turkish units, then it must be a formed unit and not local arabs?
Any ideas?
S.B
-
- Member
- Posts: 4079
- Joined: 02 Nov 2005, 20:32
- Location: Ankara/Turkey
- Contact:
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
1-The 3rd Cav. Div came to Palestine from Caucasus front in Oct.1916. Circassian Cavalry shown with the Turkish forces in Palestine in Allied records is those men
2- After the Great exedus of Circassians from their homeland Caucasus by the Russian occupation, Ottoman Government settled many of them in Syria and mostly in Jordan around Amman. Although Circassians were not Turcic origine they were nail and flesh with the Turks. Their relation goes many years back. The standart bearer of the province Budin in 1660's(Today Hungary) was a circassian. The Circassians of Amman fought againts British at battle of Jordan and Amman. They supported Turkish army with all kinds of material, animal and men. Circassian Cavalry shown with the Turkish forces in Palestine in Allied records is those men of Amman.
2- After the Great exedus of Circassians from their homeland Caucasus by the Russian occupation, Ottoman Government settled many of them in Syria and mostly in Jordan around Amman. Although Circassians were not Turcic origine they were nail and flesh with the Turks. Their relation goes many years back. The standart bearer of the province Budin in 1660's(Today Hungary) was a circassian. The Circassians of Amman fought againts British at battle of Jordan and Amman. They supported Turkish army with all kinds of material, animal and men. Circassian Cavalry shown with the Turkish forces in Palestine in Allied records is those men of Amman.
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Tosun
I agree that the Circassian cavalry is likely the 2nd Kalfas Süvari Tugayi. I will look in the offocials, but I don't remember a Circassian unit mentioned.
Pista!
I agree that the Circassian cavalry is likely the 2nd Kalfas Süvari Tugayi. I will look in the offocials, but I don't remember a Circassian unit mentioned.
Pista!
Last edited by jwsleser on 15 Feb 2015, 05:02, edited 1 time in total.
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Jeff,
Sorry mate, I don't believe it is from the 2nd Bde?
My chapter on the Amman battle March 1918;
"The Turkish Armies since November had been steadily rebuilding their forces along a wide front from Jaffa to Amman, however General Liman Von Sanders had little to stop any British advance directed on Amman whose garrison called the East Jordan Group or to the Turks, the Seria Group of the 48th Division HQ under Lieutenant Colonel Asim Bey consisted only a few companies of the 3rd Battalion 150th Regiment (48th Division) which also manned a number of guard posts along the Hejaz Railway. These forces were divided into two areas, the Northern group under Lieutenant Colonel Omer Lutfu Bey commanding officer of the 126th Infantry Regiment (11th Division) covering Es Salt and Ghoraniye with only the second battalions from the 150th (48th Division) and 159th Regiments (24th Division) with a battery of guns, and, the Southern Group under Captain Ahmet Bey covering south of Ghoraniye with some irregular Circassian Cavalry with the 48th Divisional Cavalry Squadron and a Camel Company covered the area from Amman to the Jordan River.
While the first reinforcement Regt arrived around Feb 1918 (13th Cav Regt) and the 2nd Bde (9th and 11th Cav Regts) around April 1918.
I'll agree with Tosun, that the Circassian Cav were a local raised unit, but how big was this unit, considering the low numbers of horses available to the Turkish Army by 1918. How were they dressed, standard Turkish uniform or arab dress?
Just some questions
Also a Turkish webb site has this"
there were also units formed by Caucasian and Rumelian Turks (such as the “Osmancık Battalion” led by Lt. Süleyman Askeri) who took part in the battles in Mesopotamia and Palestine. Volunteers were not only Turks; there were also Arab and Bedouin volunteers who supported the campaign against the British to capture the Suez Canal."
Cheers
S.B
Sorry mate, I don't believe it is from the 2nd Bde?
My chapter on the Amman battle March 1918;
"The Turkish Armies since November had been steadily rebuilding their forces along a wide front from Jaffa to Amman, however General Liman Von Sanders had little to stop any British advance directed on Amman whose garrison called the East Jordan Group or to the Turks, the Seria Group of the 48th Division HQ under Lieutenant Colonel Asim Bey consisted only a few companies of the 3rd Battalion 150th Regiment (48th Division) which also manned a number of guard posts along the Hejaz Railway. These forces were divided into two areas, the Northern group under Lieutenant Colonel Omer Lutfu Bey commanding officer of the 126th Infantry Regiment (11th Division) covering Es Salt and Ghoraniye with only the second battalions from the 150th (48th Division) and 159th Regiments (24th Division) with a battery of guns, and, the Southern Group under Captain Ahmet Bey covering south of Ghoraniye with some irregular Circassian Cavalry with the 48th Divisional Cavalry Squadron and a Camel Company covered the area from Amman to the Jordan River.
While the first reinforcement Regt arrived around Feb 1918 (13th Cav Regt) and the 2nd Bde (9th and 11th Cav Regts) around April 1918.
I'll agree with Tosun, that the Circassian Cav were a local raised unit, but how big was this unit, considering the low numbers of horses available to the Turkish Army by 1918. How were they dressed, standard Turkish uniform or arab dress?
Just some questions
Also a Turkish webb site has this"
there were also units formed by Caucasian and Rumelian Turks (such as the “Osmancık Battalion” led by Lt. Süleyman Askeri) who took part in the battles in Mesopotamia and Palestine. Volunteers were not only Turks; there were also Arab and Bedouin volunteers who supported the campaign against the British to capture the Suez Canal."
Cheers
S.B
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Steve
After a lot of looking, I finally found the passage I assume you are describing.
Ikinci bölgeyse, Goraniye (Eriha) Körprüsü (hariç)’nde Lut Gölü’ne kadar uzanan kesim olup Yüzbaşi Ahmet komutasinda, bir süvari bölüğüyle hecinsüvar bölüğü, Kuneytra ve Zerka Çerkez gönüllülerinden kurulu bir müfreze tarafindan korunacakti.
No mention of the size of the force but I assume very small. The men are from the local area, so I am assuming they couldn't raise that many men.
I have not seen these Circassians listed in any OBs.
Pista!
After a lot of looking, I finally found the passage I assume you are describing.
Ikinci bölgeyse, Goraniye (Eriha) Körprüsü (hariç)’nde Lut Gölü’ne kadar uzanan kesim olup Yüzbaşi Ahmet komutasinda, bir süvari bölüğüyle hecinsüvar bölüğü, Kuneytra ve Zerka Çerkez gönüllülerinden kurulu bir müfreze tarafindan korunacakti.
No mention of the size of the force but I assume very small. The men are from the local area, so I am assuming they couldn't raise that many men.
I have not seen these Circassians listed in any OBs.
Pista!
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
-
- Member
- Posts: 4079
- Joined: 02 Nov 2005, 20:32
- Location: Ankara/Turkey
- Contact:
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Steve, During Ottoman period all the diffrent folks weared their own national dresses. For that reason the empire seemed a huge carnival. Arabs, albanians, Rum, Black Sea people ect had their own trachts. Turks also. It was possible for everyone to uunderstand if a man/woman was arab or albanian.
NOW Circassians had their traditional dresses. They fought at Amman not in Turkish uniform but in traditional circassian dresses.
NOW Circassians had their traditional dresses. They fought at Amman not in Turkish uniform but in traditional circassian dresses.
-
- Member
- Posts: 4079
- Joined: 02 Nov 2005, 20:32
- Location: Ankara/Turkey
- Contact:
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
bir müfreze
Only a detachment. This means more then 30 men. In good condition a Turkish company had 100 and four teams (takım). Unfortunately they were not able fo find new reinforces. Arabs were untrustable. The ruling Turkish population in the empire was less then 10 millions.This means Turks collected every possible men to defend the area.
Only a detachment. This means more then 30 men. In good condition a Turkish company had 100 and four teams (takım). Unfortunately they were not able fo find new reinforces. Arabs were untrustable. The ruling Turkish population in the empire was less then 10 millions.This means Turks collected every possible men to defend the area.
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Wouldn't say Arabs were untrustable, more Arabs fought and died for the Ottomans in WWI than for the Revolutionaries. The famine of 1916-1917 and Jemal Pasha's heavy handed policies (he is called Jazzar) alienated the population and lead to the mass defections of 1918.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Mates,
Thanks that makes sence.
I had thought that the unit was larger but that was not possible by late 1917 early 1918, there were just not enough men or horses to raise a large unit.
A small unit used as scouts, patrol work, flank protection and other small jobs that left the Regular cav free to fight looks right.
Cheers
S.B
Thanks that makes sence.
I had thought that the unit was larger but that was not possible by late 1917 early 1918, there were just not enough men or horses to raise a large unit.
A small unit used as scouts, patrol work, flank protection and other small jobs that left the Regular cav free to fight looks right.
Cheers
S.B
-
- Member
- Posts: 4079
- Joined: 02 Nov 2005, 20:32
- Location: Ankara/Turkey
- Contact:
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Ahmet Cemal Paşa did the right decision by hanging the members of an illegal Syrian anti-ottoman organization. He was commander of a large front and directing a war against British Empire. Every state acts under such conditions. I wonder if you act as a native of Hicaz againts Saudi regime I am sure you would be skinned, salted and would let in the desert to be dried up. Cemal Paşa was not a butcher (or Cezzar) He was a great Turkish soldier.
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
HI Steve
The Hashemite Kings of Jordan have always had a Circassian bodyguard and I guess their dress would be similar to that worn in the 1st World War.
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/new ... to/3167345
All the best
Dom.
The Hashemite Kings of Jordan have always had a Circassian bodyguard and I guess their dress would be similar to that worn in the 1st World War.
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/new ... to/3167345
All the best
Dom.
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Still today, they are the personal guards of the king:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUXNfyWAYqc (In Arabic).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUXNfyWAYqc (In Arabic).
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: Circassian Cav Regt
Mates,
Wow
I'll check out there history, started as a body guard in 1921, and the uniform changed from British pattern to Cossack garb after that.
Thanks
S.B
Wow
I'll check out there history, started as a body guard in 1921, and the uniform changed from British pattern to Cossack garb after that.
Thanks
S.B