Ottoman 7th Infantry Division

[tiger1981]

Formation:
19th Infantry Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
21st Infantry Regiment
7th Artillery Regiment

History:
It was in the formation of the III Corps from 1912 to end of 1916, in the WW1 it participated in the battles of Gallipoli (April 1915 - Jan 1916) and in the battles of Caucasus (Aug 1916 - Sept 1916).
It was in the formation of the XXII Corps from Aug 1917 to Sept 1918 and participated in the battles of Palestine (for example battle of Arsuf).

The Division has been destroyed in 25 Sept 1918 during Battle of Megiddo (precisely in Battle of Tulkarm).

Commanders:

In Sept 1918 Commander was Nasuhi bey , i dont know when he became commander , and who were commanders before him.

[stevebecker]

Mate,

My details are;

7th Div -Bulair 1915 Gallipoli-Suvla to Caucasus 1916 to Gaza 1917 Palestine 1918 destroyed Meggido 1918
3rd Corps -1914 &1915 15th Corps- Gallipoli 1915 to 3rd Corps- Feb 1916 Caucasus to 22nd Corps- 1917/18 Gaza

Commanders (all dates unknown)
Col Ahmet Remzi Bey (Alcitepe) 1915 - Col Halil Bey (Kut) - Col Kazim Bey (Dirik) - LtCol Nasuhi Bey

CofS
Maj Sukru Naili 4-15 to Capt Semseddin Tahir Bey (Taner) 9-15 to Maj Fikri Bey 10-17

1-3/19th Regt - 19th MG Co
1-3/20th Regt
1-3/21st Regt- 21st MG Co

19th - LtCol Sabri 1915 to LtCol Irfan 9-15
20th - Maj Mehmet Halit Bey 4-15 WIA 9-8-15 DoW 11-8-15 to LtCol Ali Bey
21st - LtCol Halil Bey 4-15 to LtCol Yusuf Ziya WIA 9-8-15 DoW 11-8-15 to Maj Ahmet Zeki (Soydemir) 1bn - Capt Hasan & 3Co/1Bn Lt Zeki Rasit KIA 6-4-15 2bn - Ahmet Muhtar 3bn- Capt Ahmet Niyazi

Aug 1915 - 19th Regt att 5th Div & 33rd Regt att 8-15 to Dec 1917 - 134th Regt replaced 19th Regt 1917'18 - 3/21st Regt to Hejez

Artillery

7th Artillery Regt - LtCol Salih Ulvi

1/7th Baty (4 x 7.5cm L/30 Krupp) (all best guess)
2/7th Baty (4 x 7.5cm L/30 Krupp)
3/7th Baty (4 x 7.5cm L/30 Krupp)
4/7th Baty (4 x 7.5cm L/30 Krupp)
2x Mountain Btys each (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)

Jan 1917 - 13th Artillery Regt 6xbty's to Dec 1917 - 1M/14th FA Bty 1/13th FA Bty

Suport units

2nd Sqn 4th Cav Regt -
7th Field Hosp -
7th Sig sect

Cheers

S.B

[tiger1981]

Thank you very mach friend

Commanders (all dates unknown)
Col Ahmet Remzi Bey (Alcitepe) 1915 - Col Halil Bey (Kut) - Col Kazim Bey (Dirik) - LtCol Nasuhi Bey

Col Halil Bey (Kut) was Commander of the 7th Division and the 6th Army in same time???!!

[maxnechitaylov]

According to Russian data, on 1.VII.1916:

II Army:
16th Corps (Mustafa-Kemal-pasha): 5th Inf. Div. (9 btns), 7th Inf. Div. (9 btns), 8th Inf. Div. (9 btns). To the west from the Van lake, Mush and Bitlis areas (directions).

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 5/mode/1up

[tiger1981]

According to Russian data, on 1.VII.1916:

II Army:
16th Corps (Mustafa-Kemal-pasha): 5th Inf. Div. (9 btns), 7th Inf. Div. (9 btns), 8th Inf. Div. (9 btns). To the west from the Van lake, Mush and Bitlis areas (directions).

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 5/mode/1up

According to Russian data, Second Army on 1.VII.1916:
II Corps
11th Division, 12th Division, Amasya Gendarmerie Division, 9th + 10th + 11th + 12th battalions of frontier guards, 2 battalions of Mosul

III Corps
1st Division, 49th Division, 53rd Division

IV Corps
47th Division, 48th Division

XVI Corps
5th Division, 7th Division, 8th Division

3rd Regular Cavalry Division, 2nd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division, 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division, 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Regiment, Van Gendarmerie Division, 2 battalions of Mosul


While according to Ottoman data, Second Army on VIII.1916 (see Edward J. Erickson, Ordered to Die, A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, (Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 2001), 128. ):

II Corps
11th Division, 12th Division

III Corps
1st Division, 7th Division, 14th Division, 53rd Division

IV Corps
47th Division, 48th Division

XVI Corps
5th Division, 8th Division

3rd Regular Cavalry Division

[maxnechitaylov]

corrections:

II Corps
11th Division, 12th Division, Amasya Gendarmerie Rgt, 9th + 10th + 11th + 12th battalions of frontier guards

III Corps
1st Division, 49th Division,53rd Division

IV Corps
47th Division, 48th Division

XVI Corps [against the IV Caucasian AC by 1.VII.1916]
5th Division, 7th Division, 8th Division

3rd Regular Cavalry Division, 2nd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division, 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division, 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Bde, Van Gendarmerie Division, 2 Mosul Reserve Btns

[maxnechitaylov]

About the source of the Russian data (Turkish staff major deserter + other sources):

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 7/mode/1up

[maxnechitaylov]

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 0/mode/1up
20-24.VII.1916: 7th turkish Inf. Div. (XVI corps) attacks and pushes back 261th Inf. Akhulginskiy Rgt (1st bde, 66th Inf. Div.)

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 2/mode/1up
7.VIII.1916: 7th Inf. Div. is beaten, lost 3 guns, 4 machine guns, 300 prisoners

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 8/mode/1up
7th Inf. Div. destroyed; new organization of XVI Corps at the end of 1916: only 5th and 8th divisions.

[tiger1981]

corrections:

II Corps
11th Division, 12th Division, Amasya Gendarmerie Rgt, 9th + 10th + 11th + 12th battalions of frontier guards

III Corps
1st Division, 49th Division,53rd Division

IV Corps
47th Division, 48th Division

XVI Corps [against the IV Caucasian AC by 1.VII.1916]
5th Division, 7th Division, 8th Division

3rd Regular Cavalry Division, 2nd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division, 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division, 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Bde, Van Gendarmerie Division, 2 Mosul Reserve Btns

Thank you
Excuse me I was writing quickly when i was translating

About the source of the Russian data (Turkish staff major deserter + other sources):

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 7/mode/1up

Probably deserter gave false information or 7th division has been moved to 3rd Corps later

https://archive.org/stream/mirovaiavoin ... 8/mode/1up
7th Inf. Div. destroyed; new organization of XVI Corps at the end of 1916: only 5th and 8th divisions.

7th division was not destroyed in Caucasus , it moved to Palestine and destroyed in Battle of Megiddo Sept 1918.
By the way , Nasuhi Bey its commander during Battle of Megiddo was an Arab officer as i read.

[maxnechitaylov]

Probably deserter gave false information or 7th division has been moved to 3rd Corps later

Черт его знает Я бы Вам посоветовал все же прочитать соответствующий абзац на стр. 64 книги Корсуна "Первая мировая война на Кавказском фронте" 1946 года..

Русскоязычной литературы о Кавказском фронте Первой мировой - несколько книг Корсуна (три - об отдельных операциях, и одна - общий очерк) и Масловский, плюс несколько работ о казаках (Евдокимов, Елисеев, Стрелянов), горстка мемуаров, да несколько не очень полезных публикаций советского времени (Арутюнян, например).
Архивы, понятно, мне недоступны, а отсканированные архивные дела из 450 фонда (разведданные о Турции) выложены только до довоенного периода.
Так что данных о турецкой армии с русской стороны опубликовано крайне мало, не проверишь и не сверишь.

P.S. By the way, по данным, собранным разведкой, в 1914 в Тифлисе (Тбилиси) издана была (для секретного использования) памятка "Сведения о Турецкой армии, в изменение и дополнение к Памятке о Турецкой армии издания 1912 года". Но где ж ее найдешь?..

[stevebecker]

Max,

No worries I ran into the same problem when dealing with British Orbats on Turkish units, they got there info from prisoners and deserters. And I have found it was not always 100% correct.

So lee way in these orbats is expected, as some units move around and may of happened during the gathering of details?

The 3rd Corps had these known units

1914 - 7th Div Kirkkilise - 8th Div Tschorlu - 9th Div Babaeski -

Gallipoli 1915 - 5th, 7th, 9th, 19th & 15th Div's

1916- att 2nd Army at Murat Region Russia Front 1st, 7th, 14th and 53rd Div's 8-16 battles along the River Murat July to Sept 1916 -

Palestine 10-16 1st & 2nd Gaza - 3rd Gaza 10-17 (27th & 3rd Cav Divs) - June 1918 (1st Div and 24th Div + 3rd Cav Div)

Kemal's 16th Corps is shown with only two Divs (5th and 8th Div's) and by the movement of this Div (7th Div) it was no where near the 16th Corps;

7th Div movements
Çevlik 22.06.16 Perhangök ü Ulyâ 03.08.16 Meydân i Esref 07.08.16 Kirvaz i Zîr 09.08.16 Kirvaz i Bâlâ 21.08.16 Meydân i Esref 29.08.16 Melihan 03.09.16

8th Div moves
Ras el Ayn 03.05.16 Diyâr i Bekr 10.05.16 Silvan __.07.16 Barkos 13.07.16 Sin 29.07.16 Pâsur 04.08.16 Sin 08.08.16 Mus 25.08.16 Perhan Gök ü Ulyâ 30.08.16 Zeydân 15.09.16

5th Div moves
Hovans 23.05.16 Dü Han 31.07.16 Perhan 11.08.16 Bitlis 23.08.16

of cause the 7th Div may have been the right flanking Div of the 3rd Corps and the closest to the 16th Corps and may have been involved in there battles? (7th Div at Kirvaz i Bâlâ 21.08.16 Meydân i Esref 29.08.16 and 8th Div around Mus 25.08.16 Perhan Gök ü Ulyâ 30.08.16)

Like wise these Turkish units were not around , 2nd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division (disbanded March 1915) , 3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Division (disbanded August 1916),

3rd Irregular Kurdish Cavalry Bde (no bde on Turkish orbat?) possibly the Van Reserve Cav Bde

S.B

[stevebecker]

Max,

What I did find interesting is the two units?

Amasya Gendarmerie Rgt, 9th + 10th + 11th + 12th battalions of frontier guards

I always thought Turkish Frontier guards were the Gendarmerie/Jandarma .

I will need to check known Turkish records to see what I missed here.

Turks place these Turkish Frontier guards along the front

3rd Army - Khopa frontier Bn 16th and 18th Bn's at Olti and 31st and 41st Bn's on Coastal defences + 11 other Bn's 1914 Caucasus - 9th 10th 11th and 12th Bn's of frontier guards around Van

These are the only ones I can find named

S.B

[stevebecker]

Tiger,

Yes I see what you mean?

5th Exp Force - LtCol Halil Bey (Kut) 12-14 to 6-15
18th Corps - Col Halil Bey (Kut) 11-15 to 4-16
6th Army - Col Halil Pasa (Kut) 4-16
East Group and Orinat Army - Halil Pasha (Kut) 6-18 to 11-18

There is a gap around June 1915 to Nov 1915? while the 7th Div was at Gallipoli

Of cause did I make a mistake is the Col Halil Bey the one known as (Kut) or another?

I did find a Col Halil Bey commanding the 3rd Res Cav Div on the Caucasus Front

What's on a Turkish site but makes it no clearer?;

Halil Paşa (Kut)

Halil Paşa is Enver Paşa's uncle, although he is one year younger than him. He was born in 1882 in Istanbul and graduated from the War Academy in 1905. For three years following his graduation he served the Third Army in Macedonia, where he joined the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP). When the constitutional order was restored in 1908, the CUP sent him to Iran to organise dissidence against the Shah, but after the uprising of April 13, 1909, he was called back and became the commander of the Imperial Guard.

Later in 1909, he was sent to Salonica to command the mobile gendarmerie units in the region. He took active part in the Turkish-Italian War in Libya and the Balkan War and for a brief period of time he served as the commander of the gendarmerie regiment in Van. When Turkey entered the World War, he was working at the High Command in Istanbul. In 1915, he served in Mesopotamia; in 1916, he was with the Tigris Group of Armies; in 1917, he commanded the Orient Group of Armies and later he was the commander of the Caucasus Army. In 1915, he was the commander of the Turkish forces capturing Kut in southern Iraq and taking General Townshend prisoner. After this successful campaign, he was promoted to General.

Halil Paşa returned to Istanbul when the armistice was signed. He was arrested, but he managed to escape from the prison and moved to Anatolia where he had contact with Mustafa Kemal. Halil Paşa then went to Azerbaijan to fight against the Armenians. He wanted to settle in Turkey, but since he was not allowed to do so, he first went to the Soviet Union and in 1922 when Enver waged war against the Bolsheviks, he left for Germany. After the War of Independence was won and the Republic of Turkey was proclaimed, the government granted him a special permission to enter the country. For the rest of his life, Halil Paşa lived in his homeland, without getting involved in politics.

Cheers

S.B

[maxnechitaylov]

I always thought Turkish Frontier guards were the Gendarmerie/Jandarma

Russian sources always distinguish them.

[maxnechitaylov]

Turks place these Turkish Frontier guards along the front
3rd Army - Khopa frontier Bn 16th and 18th Bn's at Olti and 31st and 41st Bn's on Coastal defences + 11 other Bn's 1914 Caucasus - 9th 10th 11th and 12th Bn's of frontier guards around Van

According to Maslovskiy (according to data of intelligence service of Staff of the Caucasian Army):
III Army, 1914: 15 Frontier btns, one Gendarme btn - Caucasian frontier; five Frontier btns and new Van Gendarme Division - against russian Azerbaijan detachment.

III Army, 1.XI.1915: Van Gendarme Division (9 btns), Amassia Gendarme rgt (3 btns), Khop Frontier btn, Melos Frontier Btn, Khod Fr. Btn, Petkir Fr. Btn, Ishkhan Fr. Btn, 17th Fr. btn, 16th Fr. btn; nine more Frontier btns (with numbers) in the Sarykamysh region; 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th Frontier btns; Gendarme btn, Georgia Legion (2 btns)

III Army, 1.VII.1916: Melos Frontier Btn, Khop Fr. btn, Khod Fr. Btn, Petkir Fr. Btn, Ishkhan Fr. Btn, 16th Fr. btn, 17th Fr. btn, nine more Frontier btns (with numbers), Gendarme Btn, Georgia Legion.