National anthems of Germany

Discussions on the music in the Third Reich. Hosted by Ivan Ž.
User avatar
HaEn
In memoriam
Posts: 1911
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 01:58
Location: Portland OR U.S.A.

#16

Post by HaEn » 28 Aug 2004, 05:12

"Deutschland Deutschland über alles" simply meant "i prefer my country over all the others". It had nothing to do with ruling others, or being "over" people. HN

User avatar
Geli
Member
Posts: 957
Joined: 09 Jul 2002, 05:53
Location: USA

#17

Post by Geli » 28 Aug 2004, 05:56

qristian wrote:the song was made in the 17-1800 and that was when all the states like bavaria and sachsen and preussia was connecting to make òne german state therby -germany germany instead of many states where the people was the same-
Actually, that's an interesting point, especially from an American perspective, since it renders Deutschland über alles similar to the motto "E Pluribus Unum" (one from many) which is on every US Dollar bill.


varjag
Member
Posts: 4431
Joined: 01 May 2002, 02:44
Location: Australia

#18

Post by varjag » 28 Aug 2004, 12:26

There was a debate about a proper translation of 'über alles' several months ago on the forum. There were some very good proposals but even splitting my brain - I cannot remember them. HaEn is quite right - it has nothing to do with ruling all others. But the British propaganda machine early on, picked the simple translation über = over for it's theme of an entire world under threat of the nazi jackboot - and that stuck, appearently to this day.

ohrdruf
Member
Posts: 862
Joined: 15 May 2004, 23:02
Location: south america

#19

Post by ohrdruf » 29 Aug 2004, 01:57

The point about the now disallowed first verse of the former German national anthem is that it makes a military political statement which it had been the purpose of the Second World War to reverse, and involved areas which by that defeat Germany had finally relinquished.

Deutschland, Deutschland, ueber alles
- Germany, Germany, before everything
Ueber alles in der Welt
- Before everything in the world
Wenn es steht zu Schutz und Truetze
- Whenever we are on the defensive or attacking
Bruederlich zusammenhaelt!
- As brothers we stand together.

Von der Maas bis an die Memel
- From the Meuse to the Memel
Von der Etsch bis an den Belt
- From the Adige to the Belt
Deutschland, Deutschland, etc.

In the second stanza, the Memel is an area forfeited under the Treaty of Versailles which had been re-annexed by Hitler in 1939 and subsequently became part of the then Soviet bloc. The Adige is a river in northern Italy and suggests that Austria and the North Tyrol are German. They may be in part racially German but post-1945 Germany no longer laid claim to them.

The decision to discard the first verse was made on political grounds which bear scrutiny.

Ohrdruf

varjag
Member
Posts: 4431
Joined: 01 May 2002, 02:44
Location: Australia

#20

Post by varjag » 29 Aug 2004, 14:37

Ohrdruf is quite right - but it was mainly that bit about 'Memel' that was too much to stomach for the postwarians. Meanwhile - it is noted that German interest and influence in - the Kaliningrad Enclave - is considerable. Everything can change in this world - as Stalin said....

Claymore
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 17 Sep 2004, 23:47
Location: Scotland

#21

Post by Claymore » 26 Dec 2004, 19:45

I have scanned a postcard used in 1941
Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles.jpg
Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles.jpg (41.39 KiB) Viewed 14163 times

User avatar
Ivan Ž.
Host - Music section
Posts: 8467
Joined: 05 Apr 2005, 13:28
Location: Serbia

#22

Post by Ivan Ž. » 07 Apr 2005, 20:59

Regarding the Third Reich national anthem:

The national anthem of fascist countries generally consisted of the traditional state anthem and the party anthem.

Germany: Deutschlandlied + Horst-Wessel-Lied
Italy: Marcia Reale + Giovinezza
Spain: Marcha Real + Cara al sol


It also might be worth mentioning that there are a couple of live recordings of some German political organisations (SS and HJ in particular) in which they additionally played their organisation's anthem:

HJ: Deutschlandlied + Horst-Wessel-Lied + Uns're Fahne flattert uns voran!
SS: Deutschlandlied + Horst-Wessel-Lied + Wenn alle untreu werden
HaEn wrote:unoficially followed by the first verse of the Horst Wessel song
Deutschlandlied + Horst-Wessel-Lied were anthem of the Third Reich since 1934. The two songs were combined together previously as well, but usually with their places switched (Horst-Wessel-Lied was followed by Deutschlandlied). The first known recording of the combination was made already in 1930; it was a march by one of the leading SA music pioneers, Gustav Groschwitz, called "Für Deutschlands Freiheit!" (apart from the Horst-Wessel-Lied & Deutschlandlied it also featured Groschwitz's own short march intro).

Groschwitz's 1930 march including the two songs
Electrocord-1516b.jpg
Electrocord-1516b.jpg (30.92 KiB) Viewed 1019 times
A 1933 live recording of the two songs before they became one anthem, with Horst-Wessel-Lied being sung before Deutschlandlied
Brillant-Special-228.jpg
Brillant-Special-228.jpg (46.67 KiB) Viewed 1019 times
A recording of German national anthem in 1933
Electrola-EG-2808.jpg
Electrola-EG-2808.jpg (44.78 KiB) Viewed 1019 times
A recording of German national anthem in 1934
Electrola-EG-3033.jpg
Electrola-EG-3033.jpg (45.43 KiB) Viewed 1019 times
A recording of German national anthem on a Japanese label, with the two songs credited as one: "Die deutsche Hymne"
Nippon-Polydor-A-310-B.jpg
Nippon-Polydor-A-310-B.jpg (47.27 KiB) Viewed 1019 times

Cheers,
Ivan

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#23

Post by michael mills » 07 Sep 2005, 08:54

You can find the words of the German Imperial Hymn, as it was sung during the First World War, here:

Heil Dir im Siegerkranz.jpg
Source: https://bildpostkarten.uni-osnabrueck.de/

You can even listen to it being sung here: http://www.dra.de/cd11.htm. You will recognise the melody.

[File and links updated by the host, Ivan Ž.]

User avatar
Fallschirmjäger
Member
Posts: 2261
Joined: 02 Sep 2005, 05:12
Location: New Zealand

Re: Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#24

Post by Fallschirmjäger » 13 Sep 2005, 07:35

THANKS. That god save the queen wtf?never herd the old anthem ,is that what this was from 1871 to 1918,even the ones later on too during WW2 and post WW2 ,the deutschland uber alles ones,this ones from WW2 i forget the one now if its called the same or not.But did england have god save the queen before 1871 or not ,i dont realy know now?if didnt the copied the germans tune,man so both anthems now have the same tune or not?.

YM
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 May 2005, 14:26
Location: Israel

Re: Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#25

Post by YM » 15 Sep 2005, 15:46

I am a little confused. Was this "Imperial Theme" considered the national anthem (I thought that was Deutchland Uber Alles)? Or was it the Kaiser's personal anthem when he appeared in person? Is there a translation into English?

Thank you

Vlaanderen
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 24 May 2004, 10:27
Location: In Flanders Fields

Re: Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#26

Post by Vlaanderen » 17 Sep 2005, 01:56

The author of the lyrics simply "borrowed" the tune of the British hymn to go with his text. So God Save the King came first.

The following links provide more information:
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/kaiserhymne.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heil_dir_im_Siegerkranz

Best regards,
Vlaanderen

User avatar
Fallschirmjäger
Member
Posts: 2261
Joined: 02 Sep 2005, 05:12
Location: New Zealand

Re: Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#27

Post by Fallschirmjäger » 17 Sep 2005, 03:55

THANKS 2. So they borrowed it then,before that date they or prussia had own anthem wonder what that one is,when was god save the queen writen then too.Also the tune is still in there anthem right?.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#28

Post by michael mills » 20 Sep 2005, 05:57

Here are some notes on the history of the German Imperial Anthem:
"God save great George, our King"
- so der Urtext der damals brit. Hymne, wurde 1745 in Londoner Theatern aufgeführt. Das Arrangement des Liedes stammte von T.A. Arne, der eigentliche Komponist ist unbekannt, auch wenn andere Quellen etwas anderes behaupten.
Das Lied hatte eine große Resonanz, so schwappte die Melodie auch ins ehem. Deutsche Reich, zumal der englische König aus dem hannoveranischem Haus stammte.
Sogar Beethoven und C.M. Weber verwendeten die Melodie für einige ihrer Kompositionen.
1782 dichtete der Kieler Student August Niemann aus dieser Melodie eine Hymne auf den damaligen deutschen Kaiser Leopold II. :
Heil, Kaiser Joseph, Heil!

Das Lied wurde übrigens zwischenzeitlich auch "Hymne" des dänisch/norwegischen Königs Christian, das jedes Jahr zu seinem Geburtstag gesungen wurde.

1795 wurde die Hymne dann erstmals zum Geburtstag des preußischen Königs Friedrich-Wilhelm II.
"...heil König Dir!"
im Berliner Nationaltheater gesungen,
mit dem Text von Pastor Heinrich Harries "Heil Dir im Siegerkranz".

Als 1806 der Kurfürst Maximilian von Bayern König wurde, sang man sogar in Bayern auf die Urmelodie den Text:
"Heil unserem König Heil !"

1815 wurde "Heil Dir im Siegerkranz" dann als offizielle preußische Staatshymne anerkannt.
Source: http://www.westfalenlied.de/westfalenli ... rkranz.htm

The notes make the point about the German origin of the House of Hannover, and its connection to Germany. King George II of Great Britain and Ireland, in honour of whom the text of the current British National Anthem was written, was also the ruler of Hannover, and thereby a prince of the Holy Roman Empire.

It is suggested that the connection of the House of Hannover with Germany led to the melody of "God Save Great George, Our King", originally a folksong of uncertain origin, being adopted for use in Germany.

It is interesting that the German text of the German Imperial Anthem was first written in honour of King Christian of Denmark, who was also a prince of the Holy Roman Empire by virtue of his rulership of the Duchies of Schleswig and Holstein.

So the development is one of the use of a folksong as the melody for various hymns written in honour of princes of the German state, first the ruler of Hannover, then the ruler of Schleswig-Holstein, then the Holy Roman Emperor, finally the King of Prussia, who in 1871 became the German Emperor.

walterkaschner
In memoriam
Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 02:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Heil dir im Siegerkranz

#29

Post by walterkaschner » 20 Sep 2005, 07:02

I had always heretofore believed that the music for the anthem "God Save the King" was originally composed by Georg Friedrich Händel around 1745 to honor King George II of England. But apparently modern scholarship has concluded that the origin of the music has a much earlier date, and Händel only arranged it - as was quite common in those days (as it is to great extent in modern times), plagiarism in musical composition not only being acceptable, but considered quite honorable.

In a somewhat comparable case, the theme for "Deutschland über Alles" originated with Franz Joseph Haydn (although some musicologists maintain he lifted the basic theme from one or more folksongs) in his hymn "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" composed in the late 18th Century in honor of Emperor Francis II of Austria. Haydn then developed the theme in the heart-breakingly beautiful slow movement to his string quartet Opus 76 # 3, and it has subsequently been "plagiarized" into variations by Czerny and Wieniawski, and reportedly orchestrated by Tchaikovsky, although I have never heard his version. But somehow when the theme was taken over for the German national anthem it became perceptibly (at least to my ears) somewhat more harsh and strident, and lost the gentle genius of Haydn's touch.

Regards, Kaschner

cultersheep
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 08 Aug 2018, 18:43
Location: Scotland

Re: Deutschlandlied

#30

Post by cultersheep » 19 Oct 2019, 03:30

https://s1.vocaroo.com/media/download_t ... 1NEUPU.mp3

That is the best version of Deutschlandlied I've heard from during the Third Reich.

Post Reply

Return to “Music of the Reich”