Italy and paratroopers of Div. H. Göring

[Oasis]

In months nov/dec '44 in central Italy near Bologna (Anzola Emilia) a large mopping-up operation was driven against partisan forces of Garibaldi and Matteotti brigades. Among the axis forces employed, with italian fascists, was noted the presence of Div. H. Göring paratroopers. But they shouldn't be there in that period of time. Is it correct or not?
Any contribution will be appreciated.

[c.g.]

Hi there:
definitely no Göring units in Italy by that time. In autumn 1944 the Anzola-Bologna area was controlled by units of 4th Para Division as well as non divisional units of First Para Corps.
You can also check the following site for further information:
http://194.242.233.149/ortdb/ortdb.html

[Oasis]

Hi there:
definitely no Göring units in Italy by that time. In autumn 1944 the Anzola-Bologna area was controlled by units of 4th Para Division as well as non divisional units of First Para Corps.
You can also check the following site for further information:
http://194.242.233.149/ortdb/ortdb.html

Thanks c.g.
this sounded right also to me but I found two witnessings in:

A. Preti "Sabbiuno di Paderno dicembre 1944", University Press, Bologna 1994:
"...at sunrise 5th december Germans (SS and paratroopers of Brigade Hermann Göring) and fascists (BB.NN.) start mopping up in Anzola-Calderara-Amola area against partisans of 7th GAP and SAP."

Aa.Vv. "Anzola Emilia nella lotta per la libertà", Bologna 1978:
"... 5th december nazifascist mopping up also with the paratroopers of Div. Hermann Göring guided by a spy..."

[Jon G.]

I'm moving this topic to this sub-section because it deals more with the geographic locale than with resistance movements.

I'm wondering if this isn't perhaps simply a case of nomenclature confusion? The writer may simply have confused paratroopers (such as those of the 4th FJ Division) with soldiers from the Hermann Göring Division. Are there any other references to the HG Division in Preti's article?

[JamesL]

I have always found references to the Hermann Göring Division quite confusing.

In Morison's History of the US Navy in World War II - Sicily, Salerno, Anzio, it is refered to in Sicily as the Herman Göring Panzer Division with 9,000 troops and 100 tanks.

Now I see it called an FJ division.

Someday I will understand .........

[Oasis]

I'm moving this topic to this sub-section because it deals more with the geographic locale than with resistance movements.

I'm wondering if this isn't perhaps simply a case of nomenclature confusion? The writer may simply have confused paratroopers (such as those of the 4th FJ Division) with soldiers from the Division Hermann Göring. Are there any other references to the HG Division in Preti's article?

I wasn't able to find other references in Preti's book.

Here follow some references from Pisa University (http://www.stm.unipi.it/stragi/StragiIt ... Simone.htm)
about german massacres of civilians (men, women, children) where is directly involved the Division Hermann Göring:
8 march 44 Perugia 9 (nr of civilians massacred)
10 march 44 Modena 130
18 march 44 Modena 136
20 march 44 Reggio Emilia 27 (with documented presence of Hptm. Hartwing)
1 april 44 Rieti 18
13 april 44 Arezzo 137
4 may 44 Macerata 15
20 june 44 Firenze 19
29 june 44 Arezzo 89
29 june 44 Pisa 60
4 to 11 july 44 Arezzo 316
23 july 44 Pisa 3
(Major Von Schulemburg of HG was cited for massacre in 1980-1991, died at home 16 jan 1997).

Maybe on november-december 44 some elements of HG were still present in central Italy (near the Bologna area)??

[Lupo Solitario]

mmm...no. I'd tell that books about local resistance are usually few cared about german units (as many other italian books, anyway). Understanding difference between FJ and HG is largely stuff for specialists and is over capabilty of those authors. As all german tanks become Tigers, all german guns become 88, all FJ become Hermann Göring...easy.

I support c.g. position (as always )

[Fallschirmjäger]

I have read in books on the FJ when in tunisia where FJ where incorparated into the herman goring divison in tunisia the whole 5th regt,and the first FJ units where formed from the Regiment General Göring which would later go on to become the Division Hermann Göring. But this first Division HG was pretty much all captured when tunisia fell to the allies,there seems to have been FJ in the div HG at most times,ex members or recruited or added into the div,like in tunisia and elsewhere where it fought like eastern germany.
So here is a site that has more info on the div HG etc..

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/worldwartw ... rmannG.htm

[Oasis]

mmm...no. I'd tell that books about local resistance are usually few cared about german units (as many other italian books, anyway). Understanding difference between FJ and HG is largely stuff for specialists and is over capabilty of those authors. As all german tanks become Tigers, all german guns become 8,8 cm, all FJ become Hermann Göring...easy.

I support c.g. position (as always )

I think to agree with you (Lupo and c.g.), probably the terror of Modena and Reggio massacres made in Emilia every german paratrooper a HG FJ.

To Fallschirmjäger I'd suggest that history is not only heroism and good fighting as in his recomended site: there has been also the "dirty war" even for HG as can be seen in my post about Tuscany and Emilia. Hope we will never forget it.

Thanks to everybody for your answers.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Whats the Tuscany and Emilia stuff,can you give me the thread or link?,thanks.

[Oasis]

Whats the Tuscany and Emilia stuff,can you give me the thread or link?,thanks.

In addition to what I wrote on the 24th
[Here follow some references from Pisa University (http://www.stm.unipi.it/stragi/StragiIt ... Simone.htm)]

for Tuscany and Emilia there are plenty of publications .. if you clarify the subject of your interest perhaps I can help you
best regards

[Peter H]

Some references refer to the HG Division as Fallschirmpanzerdivision Hermann Göring.Its Jäger Regiment in Tunisia was formed from 1/5 Para and two battalions of Sturm-Regiment Koch but this was not the reformed division that served in Italy later.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Thanks Oasis for that i was thinking you talked about the HG div in this post about Tuscany and Emilia? as you said in the post here on 25 Aug 2006 12:40.
And Fallschirmpanzerdivision Hermann Göring i read somewhere came about in east prussia im shure or in that area for some reason i dont know realy or i think either did its soldiers,maybe it sounded cool to goring to use the famous FJ name and add more prestige and scare the russians ?.

[Custermen]

"If you see a photo of a German wearing a paratrooper helment, then he was NOT a member of the Division HG".

I have made the above statment on occassion. Is it true? The Division HG wore a mixture of some odd uniforms and I don't know if I have seen all possible examples. But did they ever wear the small paratrooper helmets? Usually when you see this in Italy, you can be sure he was a member of one of the Fallschirmjäger units.

Steve

[Fallschirmjäger]

If the para was wearing the para helmet he could still be in the HG div,well in tunisia the 5th regt was incorparated in the div there as one of its regts i read.And when the div was in italy and elsewhere there where ex FJ members in it who wore there old uniforms still,but probably with HG div insignia,like this picture from and older thread here of HG div soldiers in east prussia.


And though only one wears the FJ helmet,others wear smocks so could or should be ex FJ too realy or there where just some left over smocks the HG div members thought they would wear?.I know they wore waffen ss smocks,so FJ smocks too are not out of the question,but a helmet realy would be a ex FJ as he earnt it.Also i have seen in a luftwaffe field div book that showed a ex FJ in there ranks still wearing his camo smock.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=
The original thread the picture was from.