4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

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tommy65
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4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#1

Post by tommy65 » 30 Aug 2014, 22:35

Hello everybody !
I am looking for information about the 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division "Hermann Göring" during the period that the "12. Regiment" of this Division spent in Italy, precisly in Val D' Orcia (Tuscany).
I found some years ago a very uncertain information about the location of the headquarters of this Division. The location that I found placed the headquarters of the Division in "Monte Amiata" (Tuscany) during the last days of May and the first days of June.

Does anyone know anything more about it?

I tried to search on Bundesarchiv with "ARGUS" but I wasn't able to locate the Fallschirmjäger-Division "Hermann Göring". I tried also with the signature "RL 32" but the results were the same: nothing.

Searching online I found in this days another information that placed in Val D' Orcia (Tuscany) also the "20. Luftwaffen-Sturm-Division" that were togheter with some soldiers (or Regiment maybe) of the 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division "Hermann Göring" during the first days of June.

Is it possibile that in "Monte Amiata" there was also the 20. Luftwaffen-Sturm-Division ?

Thank you for your help !

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#2

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 31 Aug 2014, 15:57

You seem to have a lot of different Luftwaffe units mixed up here, the "Hermann Göring" honorific was used not by 4th FJ Division but by the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division of the Luftwaffe. Also while there was a 20. Luftwaffen-Feld-Division it didn't serve in Italy but in Denmark.
Here is what Lexikon der Wehrmacht has to say about the 4th.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm
Alan


tommy65
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#3

Post by tommy65 » 31 Aug 2014, 23:14

Yes, I have to admit that my informations are totally a mess! :(
However the 20. Luftwaffen-Feld-Division serves in Italy in June 1944. See here: http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations ... m-division
Then I understand that the 4th FJ Division is not part of HG, so is it possible that the Division located in Val d' Orcia was insted the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" ? Thanks

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Sheldrake
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#4

Post by Sheldrake » 05 Sep 2014, 00:45

In May 1944 the 4. FJD was South of Rome as part of the cordon for the Anzio beachhead.

There is a map between PP 72 and 73 in "The history of the 5th Army", volume VI, which shows the 4. FJD in the Val d' Orcia area in late June 1944. http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/compoundobj ... 537/rec/11

tommy65
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#5

Post by tommy65 » 21 Sep 2014, 23:56

I am sorge but I had some problems so I could answer to you only today. Thank you for your answer! It was very helpful!

noworldorder555
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#6

Post by noworldorder555 » 25 Sep 2014, 12:34

Please HELP!!!

I'm new to this site but have used it from time to time when researching my Silesian genealogy. I recently received a letter from the (WASt) in reference to my Grandfather's Military Career. His papers were lost so the information is very basic. My question is can anyone help me identify what these Regiments are and what they actually did?

Thank you

Adrian, Richard geboren am 10.08.1912 in Königshütte

Heimatanschrift:
Ehefrau Adele Adrian, Königshütte/Oberschlesien
Adolf-Hitler-ßtrabe 78

Einberufungsdatum:
nicht verzeichnet

1. Erkennungsmarke:
-9752- Fl. Ausb. Btl. 12
(Fliegerausbildungs-Bataillon 12)

Truppenteil:
laut Meldung vom
04.10.1941
5. Kompanie Fliegerausbildungs-Regiment 12
Luftgaupastamt Brüssel

am
18.03.1942
Stammkompanie 1. Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 5

laut Meldung vom
03.07.1942
5. Kompanie Fliegerausbildungs-Regiment 12
Luftpastamt Brüssel
Abgang: zwecks Entlassung

Entlassungsdatum:
nicht verzeichnet



Pg2. (German)

Wiedereinberufung:
25.03.1943

2. Erkennungsmarke:
-397-Flg. H. Kdtr. (E) 22/IV Gleiwitz
(Fliegerhorstkommandantur [E] 22/IV Gleiwitz)

Truppenteile
ab
25.03.1943
Fliegerhorst-Kompanie (E) 22-IV Gleiwitz

laut Meldung vom
09.07.1943
2. Kompanie Wehrmachtgefängnis
und am
21.09.1943
Abteilung Döllersheim, Lager Kaufholz
- ob als Personal oder Gefangener nicht ersichtlich -

ab
22.09.1944
Auffangstelle Bataillon 208
und am
27.09.1944
Abgang: zur Kampgruppe Wagner

am
09.10.1944
Grenadier-Regiment 1216

Lazarettaufenthalt:
18.03.1942
Luftwaffen-Lazarett Braunschweig
- wegen Erkrankung -
Zugang: von der Truppe
Abgang: 31.03.1942 dienstfähig zur Truppe

Vermisst gemeldet
09.10.1944
bei Siegmarshofen - vermutlich übergelaufen -

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#7

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 26 Sep 2014, 00:30

I can tell you that according to Lexikon der Wehrmacht, Grenadier Regiment 1216 was formed in Metz on 25th October 1944 for 462 Inf Div and was destroyed in Metz during November 1944.
Alan

noworldorder555
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#8

Post by noworldorder555 » 26 Sep 2014, 16:41

Thanks for the insight Alan, I'm just trying to get a picture of what my Grandfather actually did in my attempt to understand how he and his family (my father included) ended up in the U.K. Metz is where he was captured before becoming a P.O.W.

Amanda

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Sheldrake
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#9

Post by Sheldrake » 28 Sep 2014, 18:37

noworldorder555 wrote:Please HELP!!!

I'm new to this site but have used it from time to time when researching my Silesian genealogy. I recently received a letter from the (WASt) in reference to my Grandfather's Military Career. His papers were lost so the information is very basic. My question is can anyone help me identify what these Regiments are and what they actually did?

Thank you

Adrian, Richard geboren am 10.08.1912 in Königshütte

Heimatanschrift:
Ehefrau Adele Adrian, Königshütte/Oberschlesien
Adolf-Hitler-ßtrabe 78

Einberufungsdatum:
nicht verzeichnet

1. Erkennungsmarke: (IDENTIFICATION)
-9752- Fl. Ausb. Btl. 12
(Fliegerausbildungs-Bataillon 12)

Truppenteil:
laut Meldung vom
04.10.1941
5. Kompanie Fliegerausbildungs-Regiment 12
Luftgaupastamt Brüssel

(JOINED AIRFORCE TRAINING REGIMENT 12 (BASED IN DOUAI FRANCE) IN AIRFORCE REGION BRUSSELS 4 OCT 1941)

am
18.03.1942
Stammkompanie 1. Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 5

(FROM 18 MAR 1942 ON THE STAFF (HQ) COMPANY OF BATTALION 1 PARACHUTE REGIMENT 5

laut Meldung vom
03.07.1942
5. Kompanie Fliegerausbildungs-Regiment 12
Luftpastamt Brüssel
Abgang: zwecks Entlassung (RETRUNED TO NO 5 COMPANY AIRFORCE TRAINING REGIMENT NO 12 ENDED BY DISMISSAL ? - MAYBE MEDICAL??)

Entlassungsdatum:
nicht verzeichnet



Pg2. (German)

Wiedereinberufung: (REJOINED 25 MAR 1943)
25.03.1943

2. Erkennungsmarke:
-397-Flg. H. Kdtr. (E) 22/IV Gleiwitz
(Fliegerhorstkommandantur [E] 22/IV Gleiwitz)

Truppenteile
ab
25.03.1943
Fliegerhorst-Kompanie (E) 22-IV Gleiwitz (25 mar 1943 AIRFIELD COMPANY No22 (GROUND DUTIES) GLEIWITZ IN WEHR KREIS IV (POSSIBLY THE "E" MEANS ON AN AIRFIELD OPERATING BOMBERS, DIVE BOMBERS OR TWIN ENGINED FIGHTERS.

laut Meldung vom
09.07.1943
2. Kompanie Wehrmachtgefängnis (FROM 9 JULY 1943 NO2 COMPANY WEHRMACHT PRISON)
und am
21.09.1943
Abteilung Döllersheim, Lager Kaufholz
- ob als Personal oder Gefangener nicht ersichtlich -( DOLLERHEIM BATTALION KAUFHOLZ CAMP - PRESUMABLY ON THE STAFF IF HE WAS A PRISONER PERHAPS IT WOULD HAVE INDICATED A CRIME AND PUNISHMENT)

ab
22.09.1944
Auffangstelle Bataillon 208 (COLLECTIING POINT BATTALION 208)
und am
27.09.1944
Abgang: zur Kampgruppe Wagner (BATTLEFIELD;GROUP WAGNER)

am
09.10.1944
Grenadier-Regiment 1216 (THEN GREN REGT REGIMENT 1216 - DEFENDING METZ)

Lazarettaufenthalt: (HOSPITAL STAY DUE TO ILLNESS )
18.03.1942
Luftwaffen-Lazarett Braunschweig
- wegen Erkrankung -
Zugang: von der Truppe
Abgang: 31.03.1942 dienstfähig zur Truppe (DISCHARGE TO TROOP DUTIES)

Vermisst gemeldet
09.10.1944
bei Siegmarshofen - vermutlich übergelaufen -(REPORTED MISSING 9 OCT 1944 PROBABLY OVER RUN NEAR SOMEWHERE THE GERMANS CALLED "SIEGMARSHOFEN" BUT THE FRENCH MIGHT HAVE RENAMED AFTER 1945)

noworldorder555
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#10

Post by noworldorder555 » 29 Sep 2014, 14:43

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it's much appreciated. I had researched this online but couldn't find accurate translations or details. I've also obtained a 'Wehrmacht Court Document' (Untersuchsakten in der Strafsache gegenbut) that relates to the time after my Grandfather was captured in Metz.

Would you have any knowledge regarding the following:

1. A. war als Melder beim Zugtrupp in Siegmarshofen eingeseszt. (Google Translation: A. was as a messenger at Platoon Headquarters in
Victory Mars Mayrhofen eingeseszt.)... Do you know anything about the Victory Mars Mayrhofen? The location? I assumed it was in Austria but could be wrong. My understanding is that he was a 'Luftwaffe Dispatch Drivers'. I'm trying to work out how his journey to Metz.

Additionally

I received a copy of his P.O.W. form from the Ministry of Defence in the U.K. The stamp on it indicates 'P.O.W. CAMP No.2 GREAT BRITAIN'. I know it was in England and was signed by J.S. Windsor.

2. Would you know anything about the whereabouts of 'P.O.W. CAMP No.2 GREAT BRITAIN'?

Thanks again

Amanda

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#11

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Sep 2014, 09:00

Amanda, Sigmarshofen is a town in Germany, there may well just be a typo in the original document which has given you Siegmarshofen. You have to be aware of place names when using Google Translate because they will be translated into nonsense as here.
Alan

noworldorder555
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#12

Post by noworldorder555 » 30 Sep 2014, 11:07

Thanks Alan, I've just checked that and it's near the Swiss border so not far from France.

I must admit I really have struggled with the whole translation and communication process. Added to the complication is Silesia (Königshütte, Oberschlesien) changed hands several times so some documents arrive in German and others Polish. When they're handwritten it's even harder to decipher. Plus my Grandfather and his siblings were adopted as children by Polish families (so their surname changed from Buchholz to Adrian and a number of other yet unknown surnames). Which has proved immensely frustrating because his younger brother 'Erich' was a Tank Sergeant who was K.I.A. at the Eastern Front. I know there will be a file on him somewhere but now need to establish his surname. (War eh? It's repercussions filter out for generations and generations... Maybe one day we really will be civilised.) My only hope is that the 'ARCHDIOCESE ARCHIVES IN KATOWICE' will have his adoption details within their old Church books.

Referring back to the translations, you're correct! When I spoke to a lady at the Bundesarchiv she said the 'Wehrmacht Court Document' contained information alluding to the fact that "The fugitive was shot"... My google translation didn't reveal that but like you say it did give me a lot of nonsense, hence I had to read between the lines to get the just of what was going on. In saying that a lot of the words don't even appear in German dictionaries so I can only assume different dialects were at play (if that makes sense).

Thank again for your direction with this, it's much appreciated.

Amanda

fallschirm2
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Location: England

Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#13

Post by fallschirm2 » 23 Oct 2014, 21:53

Amanda,

Private mail sent

Regards
David

alycatz
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#14

Post by alycatz » 25 Oct 2014, 06:52

Hi amanda, you asked-
noworldorder555 wrote:Thanks for the insight Alan, I'm just trying to get a picture of what my Grandfather actually did in my attempt to understand how he and his family (my father included) ended up in the U.K. Metz is where he was captured before becoming a P.O.W.

Amanda
I have noidea what your grandfather did during the war, i hope others can tell you.

I can offer you this-

Depending on whom caught your Grandfather inwhich you have already confirmed he was sent to a British POW camp, leading me to believe the British caught him and sent him away to Britain. The Reason why Allies not Having pow camps so close to battle field where the Germans were located (Everywhere in Europe) *would make it so easy for germans to escape and make it back to Germany (and german occupied territories) to regain entry in either, the Luffwaffe, navy or as an infantry soldier.*

As for your father being born in the UK? That is simple. After the war, all Germans pows in Britain had a choice to go back to worn torn Germany or to stay and take British citizenship. Your grandfather opted to stay and take British citizenship, which was a probably a good idea at that time..... The german pows in Russia wasnt so lucky.

Your story sounds very interesting Amanda.
aly

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seaburn
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Re: 4. Fallschirmjäger-Division

#15

Post by seaburn » 25 Oct 2014, 12:35

Amanda - Camp 2 appears to have been in 'Toft Hall' in Cheshire. I am tracking a German POW through the camp system - this one got moved more than once so there is a chance you GF could have been in more than one also. I have some website info on Camps in the UK. If it's still an area of interest to you - send me a pm

C

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