The Combat Performance of the Fallschirmjäger

[Urmel]

To discuss this seriously I believe we have to split up the time-line - before and after the expansion of the XI Fliegerkorps. I can find nothing up till, and included, the creation of XI Fliegerkorps (mainly the addition of the 22. LL-division - LuftLande to the 7th) under Student's command, of any such units as mentioned by Sheldrake. His source probably refers to later constellations.

Even the expansion to a full division (the 7th) after the Dutch adventure, was made by "normal" expansion and was finished end of August. Ref. Götzel's biography on Student.

Fred

IR16 became Luftlande in 1938 (the last year of peacetime).

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... r/IR16.htm

Here's the police connection:

http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations ... al-goering

[fredleander]

Tks for links, Urmel. That should clear up the Regiment Göring question.

Fred

[fredleander]

IR16 became Luftlande in 1938 (the last year of peacetime).

IR16, the first army airborne battalion (a test unit) and Göring's airborne battalion (fallschirm-schützen) of his Guard's Regiment constituted the force Student was ordered to establish Summer/Fall 1938 for the purpose of participating in an eventual invasion of Czechoslovakia. It was given specific missions. After Münich these units were taken away from him, only some skeleton units remained.

It's after that the slow expansion started to what it became during the war. Lack of personnel was not because of lack of volunteers (which was a central point in Student's personnel policy) but rather due to various Army and Luftwaffe regulations, somebody had to "give" these volunteers and there was much scepticism to this new branch in "higher circles", even if it was supported by Göring. The influx of former Landes-Polizei and SA youth after this was on an individual basis and much adjusting in training and formal classification for NCO's and officers was needed. This was solved in several conferences between the various branches. Student preferred, and based his recruiting on, regular army personnel with infantry training background (Götzel).

Only after the first two-year classes of conscripts were released from service, before the war, did a proper volunteer pool become available for the para units.

The Army's IR16, with its initial para and LuftLande-training, was hovering in the background as an extra pool.

Fred

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Let's face facts: Those in the new technical, elite forces (Paras., U-Boats, many Luftwaffe), were the most fanatical Nazis, that elite belief led men to these specialized Units in the first place. They were the pioneers of the new Nazi empire...

Most of the Paras. were stone-cold Nazis. It's why they fought so hard; they believed. Why do so many sing their praises, as though they were with us...

Hi ..

Actually I am not "us". Where I come from, our forefathers fought for both the "them" side as well as the "us" side in ww II A total of 2.5 million Indian troops fought in the British Indian Army in WWII, in North Africa, Italy, Greece, South and South East Asia. At Monte Cassino, troops from the Gurkhas, Rajputana Rifles and Punjab Regiment played a significant role.

THE 8TH INDIAN INFANTRY DIVISION WAR SONG at Cassino :
O bury me at Cassino
My duty to England is done
And when you get back to Blighty
And you are drinking your Whisky and Rum
Remember the old Indian soldier
When the war he fought has been won!

http://merrynallingham.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Indian-troops-pass-bomb-shattered-buildings-on-the-outskirts-of-Cassino-town-Italy.jpg

Indian-troops-pass-bomb-shattered-buildings-on-the-outskirts-of-Cassino-town-Italy.jpg (47.58 KiB) Viewed 1472 times

However many of our forefathers fought for the "them" side too, as freedom fighters for Indian independence. They fought in France (minor role), Burma and the Indian border areas at Imphal and Kohima (major role). So 'am sure this entitles me to sing paeans for the FJ and other Axis forces, as I have been consistently doing at AHF ?


Ciao
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi..

While recounting the exploits of the FJ in WWII, people often refer to their successes at Cassino, Crete, Ramcke in NA and of course the Western European theatre in April '40. Mention is also made of the less than crediatble showing in the Ardennes (operation stosser) and the rout in the Oder - Berlin front.

However, not often is it mentioned that the 5th FJD (FJR13, FJR14, FJR15 plus Pioneer, support and service units and attached 11 FJ Stg Brig, Gnrlmjr Sebastian-Ludwig Heilmann) was perhaps the only formation in the Ardennes that reached its objectives as per the timetable.

"....The division was ordered to breakthrough in the region between Stolzembourg and
Vianden/Bettel in Luxembourg. After the artillery preparation on the early
morning of December 16th 1944 the Fallschirm Pionier Bataillon 5
prepared bridges over the Our river near Vianden and Roth a.d. Our, where the
15th and 13th Fallschirmjäger regiment crossed the river
successfully. The town of Vianden itself was taken in the early morning of the
16th by the 4th company of the 5. Fallschirm Pionier
Bataillon under the command of Leutnant Hans Prigge, who later fell near
Livarchamps/Belgien.....

To the north of Vianden near Stolzembourg elements of the 14th
Fallschirmjäger regiment crossed the Our river by footbridges and boats. The 11th
Fallschirm Sturmgeschütz Brigade who was attached to the division crossed the
Our on a shallow part of the river near Stolzembourg as well.

The division was the only one in the Ardennes offensive who achieved their
objective: a defensive line south of the town of Bastogne...."
(excerpts from : historicalwarmilitariaforum.com)

The importance of the cross roads near Bastogne for the German attack is well known. Subsequently after the reversal of fortunes, the formation fought on bravely and effectively in defence, For e.g., in the Sonlez mill area against the American counter offensive.


I would appreciate more info on this action pl.

Ciao
Sandeep

[skylinedrive]

The main reason of this fast advance was that, by a weird chance, they never met any real resistance. They advanced mainly unopposed while adjoining units had to fight against a stubborn US resistance.
Later on they were caught up in harsh battles against the advancing III rd US Army though and put up a spirited defense south of Bastogne.

[Sheldrake]

Let's face facts: Those in the new technical, elite forces (Paras., U-Boats, many Luftwaffe), were the most fanatical Nazis, that elite belief led men to these specialized Units in the first place. They were the pioneers of the new Nazi empire...

Most of the Paras. were stone-cold Nazis. It's why they fought so hard; they believed. Why do so many sing their praises, as though they were with us...

Hi ..

Actually I am not "us". Where I come from, our forefathers fought for both the "them" side as well as the "us" side in ww II A total of 2.5 million Indian troops fought in the British Indian Army in WWII, in North Africa, Italy, Greece, South and South East Asia. At Monte Cassino, troops from the Gurkhas, Rajputana Rifles and Punjab Regiment played a significant role.

THE 8TH INDIAN INFANTRY DIVISION WAR SONG at Cassino :
O bury me at Cassino
My duty to England is done
And when you get back to Blighty
And you are drinking your Whisky and Rum
Remember the old Indian soldier
When the war he fought has been won!

Indian-troops-pass-bomb-shattered-buildings-on-the-outskirts-of-Cassino-town-Italy.jpg

However many of our forefathers fought for the "them" side too, as freedom fighters for Indian independence. They fought in France (minor role), Burma and the Indian border areas at Imphal and Kohima (major role). So 'am sure this entitles me to sing paeans for the FJ and other Axis forces, as I have been consistently doing at AHF ?


Ciao
Sandeep

Hmmm

It is estimated that there were perhaps as many as 43,000 in the INA. Those recxruited from Indian PW were faced, like many of the Eastern Europeans in the Wehrmacht with the choice of starvation and ill treatment as an alternative. There were fifty times as many Indian soldiers fighting for the British.

Bose would have liked the INA to play a major role,. But despite prominent mentions of the INA in wikipedia entires for Imphal it is hard to see the INA as anything other than a distraction, or even a footnote in both battles. They failed to recruit or turn British Indian units.

I have met an INA Veteran in London. He was a Sikh recruited from Indian PW in Malaya. He fought for the Japanese, and thus received a pension from the Indian Government, but settled in Britain. Figure that one out.

[Urmel]

Freedom fighters for India. That always gets a chuckle. Because the Japanese were only in the business of benevolently liberating the trodden-on colonies. I would rather expect that Japanese colonisation of India wold have made the Raj look like a giant love-in amongst the Brits and the Indians.

[Sheldrake]

Bringing this back on-topic-ish. There were Fallschirmjaeger in the Imphal campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_Para ... de_(India)

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Bringing this back on-topic-ish. There were Fallschirmjaeger in the Imphal campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_Para ... de_(India)

This link doesn't yield anything useful pl. Anyways there were no German or Axis paras in Imphal The 50th paras referred to here were in the British Indian Army. Hence they weren't FJ in that sense.
However there was an Indian FJ unit in Netaji Subhash Bose's Free India Legion in Germany. These were not part of the Asia based INA . They were paradropped in the Western border areas of India as a commando unit and infiltrated into Indian territory.
Nothing much is known after that.

Pl refer : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... n#p1925124

Ciao
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Freedom fighters for India. That always gets a chuckle. Because the Japanese were only in the business of benevolently liberating the trodden-on colonies. I would rather expect that Japanese colonisation of India wold have made the Raj look like a giant love-in amongst the Brits and the Indians.

You share Hitler's fallacy and condescending notions about the benevolent "lovey dovey ness" of the British Raj in India.

An ancient culture with a booming economy in pre brit days was reduced to a basket case living on the edge of destitution.

Hitler's prescription on how the Brits should deal with these "Asian Mountebanks", was implemented in toto by the benevolent masters in 1942.

During the Quit India movement, Indian agitators were machine gunned and strafed by fighter bombers! Some benevolent Brit administrators took great personal satisfaction in this. Thousands died from these loving actions.

4.3 million Indians (Bengalis ) perished in the Churchill made famine in 1943. (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=120)

But by that time of course Hitler had done a turnaround and was talking of "the common cruel enemy" to Netaji Bose in Berlin !!

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Let's face facts: Those in the new technical, elite forces (Paras., U-Boats, many Luftwaffe), were the most fanatical Nazis, that elite belief led men to these specialized Units in the first place. They were the pioneers of the new Nazi empire...

Most of the Paras. were stone-cold Nazis. It's why they fought so hard; they believed. Why do so many sing their praises, as though they were with us...

Hi ..

Actually I am not "us". Where I come from, our forefathers fought for both the "them" side as well as the "us" side in ww II A total of 2.5 million Indian troops fought in the British Indian Army in WWII, in North Africa, Italy, Greece, South and South East Asia. At Monte Cassino, troops from the Gurkhas, Rajputana Rifles and Punjab Regiment played a significant role.

THE 8TH INDIAN INFANTRY DIVISION WAR SONG at Cassino :
O bury me at Cassino
My duty to England is done
And when you get back to Blighty
And you are drinking your Whisky and Rum
Remember the old Indian soldier
When the war he fought has been won!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ef/69/5f/ef695f4e7443ad63b596369ee0e370b9.jpg

indian legion.jpg (67.38 KiB) Viewed 1332 times

However many of our forefathers fought for the "them" side too, as freedom fighters for Indian independence. They fought in France (minor role), Burma and the Indian border areas at Imphal and Kohima (major role). So 'am sure this entitles me to sing paeans for the FJ and other Axis forces, as I have been consistently doing at AHF ?


Ciao
Sandeep

Hmmm

It is estimated that there were perhaps as many as 43,000 in the INA. Those recxruited from Indian PW were faced, like many of the Eastern Europeans in the Wehrmacht with the choice of starvation and ill treatment as an alternative. There were fifty times as many Indian soldiers fighting for the British.

Bose would have liked the INA to play a major role,. But despite prominent mentions of the INA in wikipedia entires for Imphal it is hard to see the INA as anything other than a distraction, or even a footnote in both battles. They failed to recruit or turn British Indian units.

I have met an INA Veteran in London. He was a Sikh recruited from Indian PW in Malaya. He fought for the Japanese, and thus received a pension from the Indian Government, but settled in Britain. Figure that one out.

Hi..

Exact numbers for the INA at peak strength are not available since records were destroyed by the retreating INA HQ staff. However 50 000 is the estimate from the recent " Tragic Orphans: Indians in Malaysia, Institute of South-East Asian Studies", Carl Vadivelle Belle,2014.

During the U Go offensive across the Burma - India border in the summer - monsoon of 1944, Col Shah Nawaz Khan's 1st Guerrilla Regiment (Subhash Brigade), which had 3 battalions X 5 rifle companies of lightly armed (jaeger like unit) troops played a significant role at Imphal and Kohima.They were otherwise well equipped for a jaeger / guerrilla unit. They had 12 heavy and light MGs per company (more than the present Indian army infantry company) and six anti tank rifles, with trench mortars at the battalion level. They were structured and armed as a quick moving, infilitrating force to operate ahead of the Japanese infantry. They were not meant to fight pitched battles. However that's what they ended up doing in some critical areas like Palel airport and on the flanks, when the Japanese 15th army ran into trouble.

The horrendous casualties suffered by the INA in this campaign belies the proposition that they played a bit role. According to Fay (Peter W Fay, . 1993, The Forgotten Army: India's Armed Struggle for Independence, 1942-1945.), Shanawaz's regiment had just one functional battalion left after withdrawing from the Imphal - Kohima sector.

As far as your assertion that "They failed to recruit or turn British Indian units", please again refer to Fay. According to him the INA's subversive and intelligence operations resulted in major demoralisation and desertions from the British Indian Army and proved decisive in the failure of important operations.

Coming to your ex INA Sikh gentleman in London, this is easy to comprehend. The idea of freedom is powerful and appealing. It is a visceral, emotive issue for which masses have died and killed down the ages. But after freedom what? Then comes the economic issues and creature comforts that apply to all humanity at all times. The Sikh diaspora ( and now the general Indian diaspora) is well established in the UK, Canada and the US. They are well networked and economically well off. Many of them love the idea of being Indian, Indian culture and at the same time value the socio-economic comforts provided by their host nations.

This is way way off topic but since the subject came up in the context of our discussions on "us" and "them" at Cassino.. so...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ef/69/5f/ef695f4e7443ad63b596369ee0e370b9.jpg

indian legion.jpg (67.38 KiB) Viewed 1332 times

Ciao
Sandeep

[Knouterer]

Opposite to the myth, the German paras had little losses in Holland. .

Fred

What myth?

Beekman/Kurowski (Kampf um die Festung Holland 1940, published 2008), p. 139, put the number of prisoners of the Luftlandekorps in the first three days (10-12 May) at 1,600 (including aircrew). Of these, 900 were taken to England on the Phrontis on the 13th, and 300 more the next day on the Texelstroom. The remaining 400 possibly included (most of) the (seriously) wounded who could not be moved easily.

On p. 203, Student is quoted to the effect that of 4,000 men of the 22nd LLD who went into action 40% of the officers and 28% of the men were killed.
Page 209: 10,500 men in action of the 7th FD and 22nd LLD (including aircrew?), 4,000 “definitive losses”, i.e. killed, prisoners taken to England, and wounded who after recovery did not rejoin the airborne forces. That’s 38%.

Golla (p. 247) puts the number in action of the 7th FD at 4,000 (2,800 parachuted, 1,200 airlanded). For the 22nd LLD (p. 246): 5,000 men airlanded over three days.
He puts overall losses at over 30% (20% for the 7th FD). That would be over 2,700 , plus aircrew, which might be another 400 or so. He also quotes a veteran of FschJgRgt 2 who remembered that of the second battalion, which went into action at Ypenburg (minus 1 company), only 28 men were left who were fit to fight by the 14th.

Assuming that Golla's calculations are correct, I would not call losses of 800 men out of 4,000 "little losses". And that number seems to be on the low side.

In any case, the number of 180 dead, wounded and missing for the 7th FD (including the losses of Sturmabteilung Koch ...) as quoted by some uninformed authors is wildly off the mark.

For a British report on the interrogation of the abovementioned prisoners, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=315

[fredleander]

With "paras" I mean - Paras... ...

Fred

[Urmel]

Freedom fighters for India. That always gets a chuckle. Because the Japanese were only in the business of benevolently liberating the trodden-on colonies. I would rather expect that Japanese colonisation of India wold have made the Raj look like a giant love-in amongst the Brits and the Indians.

You share Hitler's fallacy and condescending notions about the benevolent "lovey dovey ness" of the British Raj in India.

No I don't.

But you are utterly missing the point. The INA was as much a bunch of Indian freedom fighters as Quisling was a Norwegian patriot.