Nahkampfspange
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Nahkampfspange
Hello,
where was the Nahkampfspange "located"? was it "higher" than the Deutsches Kreuz or below? Was it even as high as the RItterkreuz?
just read, that soldiers decorated with the Nahkampfspange in gold had to be saluted first, even if a knights cross holder was present. at least it was an unwritten etiquette.
source: just wikipedia
Hauptmannenkel
where was the Nahkampfspange "located"? was it "higher" than the Deutsches Kreuz or below? Was it even as high as the RItterkreuz?
just read, that soldiers decorated with the Nahkampfspange in gold had to be saluted first, even if a knights cross holder was present. at least it was an unwritten etiquette.
source: just wikipedia
Hauptmannenkel
Re: Nahkampfspange
I thought the RK was the highest
Re: Nahkampfspange
You can't really compare such awards....
The Knights Cross was awarded for personal "bravery, achievement, Leadership, etc." in battle.... the Nahkampfspange was awarded for the number of "days" you participated in "combat actions"..... heroically or not.... and mostly indicated "long Combat service" and great "luck".... not necessarily "bravery or distinction" as such. The Gold award was considered a very prestigious award for obvious reasons... and was awarded to only a "hand full".... but doesn't equate with the Knights Cross.
John G.
The Knights Cross was awarded for personal "bravery, achievement, Leadership, etc." in battle.... the Nahkampfspange was awarded for the number of "days" you participated in "combat actions"..... heroically or not.... and mostly indicated "long Combat service" and great "luck".... not necessarily "bravery or distinction" as such. The Gold award was considered a very prestigious award for obvious reasons... and was awarded to only a "hand full".... but doesn't equate with the Knights Cross.
John G.
- William Kramer
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Re: Nahkampfspange
Hello there,
I agree with John, the close combat clasp was awarded for days in combat. The highest grade, in gold, is far more rare than a Knights Cross though and with much less total awarded than the RK but it isn't really in the same class as an award for military merit/heroism.
William Kramer
I agree with John, the close combat clasp was awarded for days in combat. The highest grade, in gold, is far more rare than a Knights Cross though and with much less total awarded than the RK but it isn't really in the same class as an award for military merit/heroism.
William Kramer
Re: Nahkampfspange
Come on guys, what are you on about? Just like the name indicates, this is a decoration for number of days in CLOSE COMBAT, not participation in a general assualt. Mind you, several engagements could occur on one day, still only a day counted. If that isn't bravery, what is?
cheers
Peter
cheers
Peter
Re: Nahkampfspange
I agree, .....that to any "Combat veteran" a "Close Combat Clasp" (or in US Army a "Combat Infantry Badge", etc.) would represent a special award of great "service, bravery, steadfastness, loyalty, brotherhood, suffering....you name it".... but still doesn't equate to bravery required to win a V.C., M.o.H., or a Knights Cross IMHO....(above and beyond the call of duty).
It's true that after the initial "Mass-credit" of days was back-dated.... standards for what constituted a "Close Combat day" were toughened.... but even then....it doesn't necessarily equate to "heroism"
I spent 13 months in Vietnam.... by my "standards" (times "shot at or that I shot, in anger" I might quality for a bronze clasp....) but there was certianly no bravery involved.... just "duty/service/loyalty" mixed with confusion, fear, and rage...... with alittle ignorance, compassion and guilt mixed in.
Goes without saying that a real GOLD CCC award is extremely rare....much rarer than a KC.... but that wasn't the question!
I'll agree to disagree...
John G.
It's true that after the initial "Mass-credit" of days was back-dated.... standards for what constituted a "Close Combat day" were toughened.... but even then....it doesn't necessarily equate to "heroism"
I spent 13 months in Vietnam.... by my "standards" (times "shot at or that I shot, in anger" I might quality for a bronze clasp....) but there was certianly no bravery involved.... just "duty/service/loyalty" mixed with confusion, fear, and rage...... with alittle ignorance, compassion and guilt mixed in.
Goes without saying that a real GOLD CCC award is extremely rare....much rarer than a KC.... but that wasn't the question!
I'll agree to disagree...
John G.
Re: Nahkampfspange
John, then I'll agree to agree to disagree, we all have differerent perceptions about concepts
You're absolutely right, comparing the CCC with a KC is a tricky business. As a decoration, the latter was indeed ranked higher than the CCC, but that doesn't tell the whole story, given the criterias for the KC. There was one KC awarded to the 14th SS Galicia, the Division Commander Fritz Freitag. His actions shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as "bravery", OR "leadership" for that matter.
"The Knights Cross was awarded for personal "bravery, achievement, Leadership, etc." in battle.... the Nahkampfspange was awarded for the number of "days" you participated in "combat actions"..... heroically or not.... and mostly indicated "long Combat service" and great "luck".... not necessarily "bravery or distinction" as such."
This is the part I'm not buying, perhaps it's just semantics. IMHO "combat" and "assualt" are two similar concepts, in German represented by "Kampf" and "Sturm". The PAB, IAB and GAB are examples of the badges awarded for what you call "long Combat service". They do not tell us anything about the circumstances of how the fighting was conducted. Standing in a rifle trench and being fired and shelled at for days is counted as combat, right? You would not receive the CCC for actions like this! You may think hand-to-hand combat is nothing but a bar brawl and has nothing to do with bravery and heroism, I most certainly differ in opinion
have a nice weekend
Peter
You're absolutely right, comparing the CCC with a KC is a tricky business. As a decoration, the latter was indeed ranked higher than the CCC, but that doesn't tell the whole story, given the criterias for the KC. There was one KC awarded to the 14th SS Galicia, the Division Commander Fritz Freitag. His actions shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as "bravery", OR "leadership" for that matter.
"The Knights Cross was awarded for personal "bravery, achievement, Leadership, etc." in battle.... the Nahkampfspange was awarded for the number of "days" you participated in "combat actions"..... heroically or not.... and mostly indicated "long Combat service" and great "luck".... not necessarily "bravery or distinction" as such."
This is the part I'm not buying, perhaps it's just semantics. IMHO "combat" and "assualt" are two similar concepts, in German represented by "Kampf" and "Sturm". The PAB, IAB and GAB are examples of the badges awarded for what you call "long Combat service". They do not tell us anything about the circumstances of how the fighting was conducted. Standing in a rifle trench and being fired and shelled at for days is counted as combat, right? You would not receive the CCC for actions like this! You may think hand-to-hand combat is nothing but a bar brawl and has nothing to do with bravery and heroism, I most certainly differ in opinion
have a nice weekend
Peter