Medal Bar Attributed to Who?

[Rundstedt89]

Hi, I have a high ranking SS Officers tunic with a WW1 medal bar attached, have accessed which medals they are etc.
They are all Bavarian, this tunic was sold many years ago to a TR collector and dealer who lives in Southern Germany.

Can somebody please advise me on how I go about finding out who the Original owners was/through his medals?

Thank you in advance.

Best.
Colin

[John G.]

Colin,
Only a few such medal bars are identifable... has to be a high enough ranking medal combination to "figure out" who the recipiant was...(which were recorded, most weren't),
and unless several fairly unique awards it would probably require alot of research and effort and probably endup fruitless....

If a "high ranking" SS tunic, knowing the rank, cuff title, anything unusual (Alter Kämpfer, sleeve diamond, tabs, etc.) and estimate of time period (pre-war, wartime, latewar) would probably be a better lead....

Of course, pictures are really required if you want any real assistance... not worth the effort if it's a fake (doesn't matter where you got it or what the story is....), and it has to be seen by someone with the knowledge to "glean" what can be gleaned.

Incidently... a medal bar would ALMOST never have been worn on a W-SS tunic, and seldom on a A-SS. Only for "Dress/formal" occassions... which certianly casts some doubt on the "story" you received.
John G.
Mainemilitaria

[Rundstedt89]

Hello John,
Thank you for your reply.

Yes, indeed it's very difficult, spent a lot of time on this already and have gone nowhere, hence my call for HELP.
The tunic and breeches belonged to an Obergruppenführer. It has 1st pattern insignia. It is of the highest quality and it's the Green type SS-VT, tailored by C. Louis Weber of Hanovper, It has an Ehrenwinkel, only one shoulder board as the other had been removed, as is the cuff title. But this seems to be the wide type, the Hauptamt type.

Is this enough information ? To make a start. I've gone through all the Ogruf's up to late 1942 and come up with nothing. But as we know you could be a Gauleiter, Diplomat with an SS-Oruf. rank, so it does become very difficult etc.

Best
Colin

[John G.]

All SS-Obergruppenführer's, including "Political appointments", would be listed in the SS-Dienstliste... so "he's there". SS-VT (really differant than the W-SS) would be a very limited issue uniform, most are either waffen-SS or A-SS feldgau wartime types, only "a few" of that rank would have been SS-VT and they would not have been assigned to the SS-High Command (as such)... I think your "terminology" may be incorrect.

There are relately small numbers who held that rank... a normal assumption would be someone from or stationed in the Hannover area... for starters.

Still would like to see photos... at least of the medal bar.... but certianly the tunic and insignia if you really want any assistance....
John G.

[Rundstedt89]

Hello John,

Sounds very promising, attached below are a few pic of the bar.

Best
Colin

[John G.]

Terminology... that's a RIBBON bar, not a medal bar. Of course, these were worn "all the time". Ribbon bar looks "good", might help confirm a name if you come up with someone... but by itself doesn't look "high enough awards" to be easily researched on that basis alone.

Tunic appears to be "wartime" summer weight material... not a typical uniform for an Obergruppenfuhrer... but certainly possible. Pictures would help.
John G.

[Rundstedt89]

Hello John,

Yes you are correct, ribbon bar..... and again have to agree not very distinctive medals.

The tunic is defiantly not a standard SSVT, as these green ones are extremely rare, you see so many period photos of the black type, the occasional Grey one, but never green. ( hard to see in a Black and White pictures )

Will post some pictures over the weekend.

Thank you again for your input.

Best Colin

[Rundstedt89]

Hello John,

Please see below.

[Rundstedt89]

More photod

[Rundstedt89]

More photos

[Rundstedt89]

Last one.

[John G.]

Colin,
I had another look at the "ribbon bar" photos, and I would say there's no way that's the original bar that "went with/belongs to" this tunic... the loops should be pretty close to the bends of the pin and catch on the bar... it wouldn't slide back and forth an inch or two... as your's appears to do. Of course, a loop could be missing... but I doubt very much this bar has anything to do with the tunic...

I don't know your collecting experience or knowledge.... you didn't ask for opinions on the tunic itself, and the pictures of the important stuff are not good enough to show the details required...(tabs, eagle, chevron, shoulders...), but I'd recommend you should post better pictures on some of the other collector forums and have it properly vetted... I see some "red flags"... but will say no more.

Glad I could help... if you consider this such. Hope things turn out.
John G.

[WAR LORD]

My thoughts on this problem are the bar has few higher awards. Thus pin pointing is a bit tricky. The Bar is Bavarian. The tunic shows first pattern collar patches of rank. Why have the shoulder boards and cuff band been removed? Or have the patches been added to a striped tunic? The big question is raised, a Bavarian, so why is the tunic made by a Hannover Tailor?

[Rundstedt89]

Hello John,

Again thank you for your reply. The ribbon bar simply came with this tunic. The original collector expressed to me that he didn't know if it was his bar. I assumed he would have had a few tunics over his service. This bar is full of WW1 awards, no TR.( that I can work out, no medal expert) He would have had a least service medals from the TR period having 1st pattern insignia. So he must had a few ribbon bars etc. This ribbon pictured still does not say,it was not his at one time or another.

But as to your posting you have doubts that this tunic is original.
The tunic has been posted on WRF, and has been seen by members like the well known SS Collector Bob Coleman and Friedrich Berthold...handle name, but I guess you know his real name. Nobody said anything about red flags as I doubt that any member would believe the owner would have anything fake in his collection. So I am surprised to read your comments. Perhaps the arm Adler picture could have been better, but everything else looks good.
It would not take much for you to see the original posting, as I see William is a member too.


Warlord,
Thank you for you reply too. May I pose you a question, AH for instance, was born in Linz, but didn't he have his uniforms made by Holtlers of/in Berlin?
This tunic is exactly how it was found, nothing added, the other board is hanging loose and needs re stitching. The Aiguillette is just for show. I'm not here to defend the tunic, I have no idea why the board and cuff are missing, might just be used as spares as the tailor never had these for another tunic, who knows???? most people always think the worst of things in this day of age, and have been given cause too.

Thank you again Gentleman for your time and postings.

Regards
Colin

[WAR LORD]

Dear Colin, just to reply to your thoughts, " May I pose you a question, AH for instance, was born in Linz, but didn't he have his uniforms made by Holtlers of/in Berlin?". You are quite correct, but this is not a similar position. The original owner of the tunic - a Bavarian, then in the period pre war, why would he have had a taylor in Hannover? Not impossible if he had been in the region, but Hannover was not a point of SS - Hamburg was, so the big question why?

So the out come is you have a tunic - you have a medal bar. Are they connected?