Thanks for the info, Juha!
Juha wrote:
There were flyable 40 planes left when the war ended?
The most part was flyable and some bombers were under small repair. AFAIK 45th long-range air division had 31 Pe-8 in flyable condition in the mid1945. Nevertheless, all heavy bombers of that type were investigated in detail after catastrophe with No. 42811 in September 1945 (see above), as the result 19 Pe-8 were not allowed to make flights in the beg1946 because of possible fatique of longerons. Soon all Pe-8s were officially discarded from military service as heavy bombers (in the mid1946), but some of them were used by Air Force as flying labs for testing new engines and aircraft equipment, also as carriers for experimental rocket aircraft and guided missiles till ~1950. The last Pe-8s were successfully used by civil polar aviation till the mid1950s at least.
Juha wrote:
As I have earlier posted, it has mentions that it got hit from Soviet AAA over Estonia before Berlin
As I have earlier posted this is a mistake (but many sources still mention that, confusing the bombers!). Soviet anti-aircraft artillery of Baltic Sea Navy damaged
another TB-7 (1st pilot - captain A. Tyagunin), participated in the same raid against Berlin (AA shell hit wing of the bomber, which returned back after bombardment of Berlin on 3 engines as 4th engine stopped). That happened
on the way back and captain Tyagunin made emergency landing on Soviet territory. The problem was that nobody informed Soviet naval AA artillery and fighter units about the planned raid against Berlin because of high level of secrecy, even pilots of participating TB-7 and Yer-2 heard about the target of the raid the same day the raid started. In addition, Soviet AA artillerymen and fighter pilots didn't know about new four-engine heavy bombers even [TB-7 was passed into service in March 1941 officially and the first Soviet AA units got the info about silhouettes of TB-7 only in July 1941] and thought that they attacked German Fw200 Condors. Some historians think also that the person, who was responsible for the informing Soviet AA units about bombers just before the raid started, was the German agent and he didn't do this (but I believe that the problem was in high level of secrecy and bad hurried organization of the raid during one day only according to Stalin's order despite the reasonable protest of Vodopianov).
By the way that was the most unsuccessful raid of TB-7/Pe-8 during WWII - 5 from 8 heavy bombers were lost [1 crashed during take-off because of engine problems; 4 bombers, damaged by AA fire, crashed during emergency landings, 2 landed on another Soviet airfields because of engine problems/fuel shortage, only 1 landed on home airfield - 5-6 bombers bombed German territory [2 dropped bombs over Berlin]. The "guilty person" was found immediately by Stalin's commission - that was commander of 81st long-range air division Vodopianov (who participated in the raid personally as the pilot, his 2nd pilot was E. Pusep, and their TB-7 made emergency landing in German-occupied Estonia on the way back, in 2 days the crew reached Soviet positions by foot thanks to Estonian Pusep). But Vodopianov was extremelly famous and experienced polar and army pilot of 1930s and one of the first Heroes of USSR, so he was not arrested but degraded from commander of division to the 1st pilot [nevertheless, he kept his high military rank].
During the Battle of Moscow in autumn 1941 Vodopianov led two TB-7 into almost suicide attack - he should attack German tanks, which pierced Soviet defense near Kaluga, from very low altitude during the daytime, but he accomplished the mission and returned back despite of strong damages of both heavy bombers from Flak fire.
Juha wrote:
The book also mentions that before the crash the pilot died and the co-pilot baled out.
The survivors were captured by local civil guard
About co-pilot I agree as his body was not found in TB-7 after crash and he was not captured by Finns together with survived crewmembers (he was captured alone in another place), but why did pilot (senior lieutenant Panfilov) die before the crash not during/after the crash? On the other hand, pilot Panfilov was one of the most experienced civil pilots of 1930s, so if he died before the crash that could be the reason of such catastrophic landing (6 crewmembers died, 4 [without co-pilot] survived). All sources I could find mention that survived crewmembers were captured by Finns not far away from Soviet positions they tried to reach on foot, one source mentions that crew defended the crashed bomber near 4 days (but this is much less proved).
Juha wrote:
The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941
The raid began 20.52 10th August (Moscow time, 2 hours differ from Finnish?) and TB-7 No. 42026 of Panfilov took-off as the last one (~21.30-21.45). The whole planned route was 2700 km and bombers had fuel for 8 hours of flight. As we know Panfilov reached Germany (but I am not sure for 100% that he could reach Berlin because of damages from AA fire), let's assume that the time was ~00.30-00.45. Then the bomber dropped bombs and began its flight back - with damaged oil system and stopped later two engines the cruise speed could be not >300 km/h, but <200 km/h near Baltic Sea at least - and the bomber crashed in Finland (quite closely to home airfield Pushkin, by the way) in 3.5 hours (Moscow time 04.10). Seems to be quite reasonable but a little bit earlier in my opinion.
Juha wrote:
The plane came down with two engines on fire, hit a large rock and broke in two just behind the wings. The plane came down with two engines on fire, hit a large rock and broke in two just behind the wings. Tail part "flew" away some 30 meters from the rest of burning wreck
TB-7 of Panfilov was seriously damaged by AA artillery over Germany, dropped bombs and started return flight. As oil system was damaged the bomber couldn't reach Soviet territory and made emergency landing in Finland. I had no information about engines on fire (one my source mentions only that two diesel engines M-40F stopped in flight because of oil shortage), but this is possible, of course. As for your description of crash - I have no exact info about it but it seems almost impossible for upper turret gunner and two "undercarriage" gunners to survive if the crash happened such way (but as we know they survived!)........
PS. As for the oil system of diesels M-40F - one of the main disadvantages of those diesels was the high oil consumption, so standard oil tanks of TB-7 was not enough for 8-15 hours flights to Germany and back. When Stalin ordered to perform new bombing raid over Berlin in October 1941 by 3 TB-7, the new oil system with additional 400 l oil tank was developed by factory engineers for 22 hours(!), immediately transported by aircraft to TB-7's airfield and installed on those 3 bombers.
Juha wrote:
He also mentioned that the wreck pieces, after had been transported to the Utti airfield, where later transported to Germany
This is interesting and very possible (to investigate the newest Soviet heavy bomber)! But, unfortunately, I couldn't find any info in German sources
Juha wrote:
P.S. is the brown clad soldier at the photo a Soviet (crew member)?
I thought at first that he is a Finn in old green/brown uniform mod.1927 (home guard?).....Hmm...Soviets didn't use brown uniform except brown flight coveralls sometimes, and this looks like coverall in my opinion, also field cap of Soviet-style....Very interesting! But if that crewmember is Soviet why is he in such good condition after catastrophic crash? He should wear flight headphones (but, of course, he could have his "ground" field cap with him also). Modern Russian sources mention that all survived crewmembers were captured near front line and if to agree with this I need to assume that photo was taken in several days after crash not just after it, and Finnish soldiers brought captives back to help in investigation of bomber or to make the good propaganda photo, who knows.....
By chance I found one more source - the memoires of famous Soviet test-pilot Stefanovsky (nevertheless, I don't think at the moment that this is 100% correct info about Panfilov's TB-7, but the fates of other TB-7s during that August raid against Berlin were described by Stefanovsky quite correct I need to say) which mentions that crewmembers defended the crashed TB-7 from Finnish home guards several days, using machine-guns/guns, removed from the bomber. That source also mentions that only radio-operator gunner survived after combat, he had no possibility to put a pistol to head (the pistol was empty already), was captured by Finns and employed later by Finnish landowner, working four years until he was returned back to USSR after WWII.
PS. Crewmembers of Pe-8 in winter flight coveralls (1942-1943) -
http://home.arcor.de/sivanov/aviation/t ... b-7-03.jpg
http://www.iremember.ru/pilots/vaulin/k ... uratov.jpg
http://allaces.ru/sssr/foto/ikonsug.jpg
Soviet uniform of Air Force in 1941:
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs1.htm (ordinary dress uniform for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs7.htm (ordinary dress uniform with raglan for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs12.htm (summer ordinary dress uniform for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs16.htm (summer/autumn battle dress for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs5.htm (summer/autumn flight uniform)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs15.htm (summer/autumn battle dress for bomber gunners and paratroopers) - those TB-7 gunners should look like similar to this guy (but without infantry DP, of course, that was weapon of some paratroopers).
Regards, BP
Of course, it seems to be possible that Soviet gunner tried to describe that catastrophe in such details which could free him from attention of NKVD to some degree (after Finnish POW camp he was "the enemy of nation" according to Stalin's order), but it seems also very possible that Finnish eyewitnesses also tried not to mention the details of strong combat between survived Soviet crewmembers and battalion of Finns if that combat really took place. In my opinion - nobody knows what happened in Lapinjärvi on 11 August, 1941 exactly at the moment.
Factory military representative Grigorenko survived after crash of TB-7 from 5000 m altitude indeed (
) survive if the bomber was broken in two parts just behind the wing.
