Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

[David Thompson]

LWD -- You wrote:

Doesn't it mean that they did not have that option after the date of the order (7 October 41)? Not to say that the Germans would have honored it before that date but it is not clear they wouldn't have either.

See the discussion of the "raze Leningrad" chronology beginning at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 121#595121

[LWD]

It does show that the Germans did plan to raze the city. However the quotes did not look like they would have been open source at the time. Would the Soviets have known about them? If not then they still had the option. (I'm assuming the 7 Octoaber order would have been common knowledge fairly quickly (this could be a fallacious assumption). In any case even if the Germans planned to do something they could have changed thier plans (not that they would have without considerable inducement).

[florecita36]

Well i am learning more with all this coments and opinions..:)thank you so much..

Stephan I just make a comment about the Spaniars Blue Division because some people said the Spaniars soldiers in Leningrad,were less criminals that Germans,in conclusion the Blue Division in Lenignrad were the best compare with Germans or other army in the WWII..I dont know..

[Helly Angel]

To Spain the spanish soldiers were the better. In the last documents of Bormann he wrote the opinion of HItler about the spanish people and is not good.

[Fern]

To Spain the spanish soldiers were the better. In the last documents of Bormann he wrote the opinion of HItler about the spanish people and is not good.

Spanish soldiers are naughty. They look at their rifles as things which don't have to be cleaned. Their sentries doesn't exist. They don't take the sentry post or slept while on them. When Russians attack, the Russian population must wake them up. However Spaniards have never lost an inch of ground. It is hard to imagine people more courageous than Spaniards. They don't take cover. They make fun of death. I know that our men are happy when Spaniards are in a neighbor sector. Nothing as changed in 100 years, they are extraordinarily brave, though in front of hardships, but undisciplined.

Adolf Hitler

The above text has been taken (and translated too because I have the Spanish edition) from Kleinfeld, G.R. & Tambs, L, "Hitler's Spanish Legion: The Blue Division in Russia"

Btw, when the Blue division was taken out of the Leningrad sector of the front they were defending to a new area near the Oranienburg pocket, as a first step to repatriate the division, some Russian population in the sector took their household equipment, furniture and fittings and followed the Spanish troops to the new sector. The data has been taken from the second Blue Division commander, General Esteban Infantes, memoirs (La Division Azul: Donde Asia empieza, 1956). It seems Russian population preferred the Spanish troops rather than the German ones which is not surprising.

I also remember a Spanish documentary about the Division in Russia. In that documentary an old Russian woman who had been a child during the war was shown. More than 60 years after the war finished that woman still remembered and old Spanish song that Spanish soldiers had taught her during the war.

[Fern]

I dont know anything about spanish soldiers there. Please tell more, as you apparently know about them.

The Blue Division was deployed in a sector of the Leningrad front near Kolpino (they could see the city with their artillery binoculars) since september 1942. They repelled a major Russian offensive to relieve the city on February 1943. About 3 Infantry Divisions (72nd, 63rd Guards and 45th Guards) an armored brigade, an independent arm. batt, 3 Ski Brigades (34th, 35th and 250th) and LOTS of artillery attacked the sector defended by the 262nd Regiment and the 250th Battalion of the Blue Division near Krasny Bor.

[Jonathan Harrison]

The Soviets could have noticed what the Nazis did in the cities in the Ukrainian and Baltic states that they captured and drawn their own conclusions about what the Nazis planned for Leningrad.

[Helly Angel]

To Spain the spanish soldiers were the better. In the last documents of Bormann he wrote the opinion of HItler about the spanish people and is not good.

Spanish soldiers are naughty. They look at their rifles as things which don't have to be cleaned. Their sentries doesn't exist. They don't take the sentry post or slept while on them. When Russians attack, the Russian population must wake them up. However Spaniards have never lost an inch of ground. It is hard to imagine people more courageous than Spaniards. They don't take cover. They make fun of death. I know that our men are happy when Spaniards are in a neighbor sector. Nothing as changed in 100 years, they are extraordinarily brave, though in front of hardships, but undisciplined.

Adolf Hitler

The above text has been taken (and translated too because I have the Spanish edition) from Kleinfeld, G.R. & Tambs, L, "Hitler's Spanish Legion: The Blue Division in Russia"

Please sources of these Hitler`words. Not the book where were published. The source where and where Hitler wrote this or the testimony of the people who saw this.

The real testimony of Hitler is here:

http://www.radioislam.net/historia/hitl ... editor.htm

In spanish:

http://www.radioislam.net/historia/hitl ... /testa.htm

The exac note of the commentary:

February 10, 1945.

In spanish:

http://www.radioislam.net/historia/hitl ... sta.htm#04

En suma, el mejor servicio que España podía prestarnos en este conflicto, ya nos lo ha prestado: obrar de modo que la Península Ibérica quedara excluida de él. Ya era bastante con arrastrar la bala de cañón italiana. Sean cuales fueren las cualidades del soldado español, España, en su estado de impreparación y de desamparo, nos habría estorbado considerablemente, en lugar de ayudarnos

In english:

http://www.radioislam.net/historia/hitl ... sta.htm#04

To sum up, by ensuring that the Iberian peninsula remained neutral, Spain has already rendered us the one service in this conflict which she had in her power to render. Having Italy on our backs is a sufficient burden in all conscience; and whatever may be the qualities of the Spanish soldier, Spain herself, in her state of poverty and unpreparedness, would have been a heavy liability rather than an asset.

By the way the website is not jewish.

[Fern]

To Spain the spanish soldiers were the better. In the last documents of Bormann he wrote the opinion of HItler about the spanish people and is not good.

Spanish soldiers are naughty. They look at their rifles as things which don't have to be cleaned. Their sentries doesn't exist. They don't take the sentry post or slept while on them. When Russians attack, the Russian population must wake them up. However Spaniards have never lost an inch of ground. It is hard to imagine people more courageous than Spaniards. They don't take cover. They make fun of death. I know that our men are happy when Spaniards are in a neighbor sector. Nothing as changed in 100 years, they are extraordinarily brave, though in front of hardships, but undisciplined.

Adolf Hitler

The above text has been taken (and translated too because I have the Spanish edition) from Kleinfeld, G.R. & Tambs, L, "Hitler's Spanish Legion: The Blue Division in Russia"

Please sources of these Hitler`words. Not the book where were published. The source where and where Hitler wrote this or the testimony of the people who saw this.

I have the Spanish edition of that book published in 1983 (the American edition was published in 1979). The info about the authors was (it maybe out of date by now):

Gerald R Klenfeld and Lewis A Tambs are professors of History at the State University of Arizona. Professor Kleinfeld got his degree in the New York University and he is the editor of the German Studies Review. Professor Tambs got his degree in the University of California.

Kleinfeld and Tambs' book are a basic reference book about the Blue Division, even in Spain.

Btw the quote in that book was taken from Hitler's Secret Conversations, 1941-44, translators Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, New Yor, New American Library Signet, 1961, pages 188-189.

The real testimony of Hitler is here:

The "REAL" testimony? Are you saying I lied or invented Hitler's quote.? Last, but nort least, do your quote invalidate mine? I don't see any contradiction between those quotes.

The exac note of the commentary:
In english:
http://www.radioislam.net/historia/hitl ... sta.htm#04

To sum up, by ensuring that the Iberian peninsula remained neutral, Spain has already rendered us the one service in this conflict which she had in her power to render. Having Italy on our backs is a sufficient burden in all conscience; and whatever may be the qualities of the Spanish soldier, Spain herself, in her state of poverty and unpreparedness, would have been a heavy liability rather than an asset.

It is clear to me that Hitler thought that Spanish soldiers were courageous, but he knew that Spain might be more a liability than an asset. It was quite large, with some posesions very difficult to defend from Allied attacks (Canary I. in the Atlantic, the Baleraric I. in the Mediterranean and the Morocco protectorate in the North African coast.). The army was quite large, but weapons were badly used up after three years of war and were outdated by 1941-43 standards (a T-26 was very powerful in 1936 and much better than German PzKpfw I, but was an armored coffin if used against modern Allied and German tanks). Spain had not valuable resources (IIRC MMercury and some Tungsten, but I am writting from memory, so I could be wrong) and had been devastated by three years of terrible civil war, so it would have swallowed lots of German resources, troops and weapons. In that case the gains might not worth the costs. However it doesn't mean Hitler thought Spanish soldiers were not brave and courageous or the Spanish people was not able to endure some kind of hardships. I am afraid your quote doesn't invalidate mine. In fact it may reinforce mine.

By the way the website is not jewish.

You are right that page it is not Jewish. It a radical Moslen and antisemitic page . I have used a respected book written by professors and you uses a radical antisemitic web page. I don't think we are at the same level :roll:

[Helly Angel]

I don't think we are at the same level

[edited by the moderator to delete off-topic, insulting national references - DT]

In the point of the thread, the reference that I post is a serious book with introduction of the BRITISH Colonel Hugh Trevor Roper, not any antisemitic or racist moron.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Trevor-Roper

There are not real evidence of these words of Hitler about spanish soldiers, to Hitler, Franco was a coward and probably another "bola de cañon" like Italy. [edited passage -- DT] The only superior people in Nazi Germany accord the nazi theory are the germans, if they used spanish, frenchs or any other people it was for necesity of the war.

No more.

BTW, we have not websites like the spanish ns nuevoorden, etc, etc, etc, etc.

[David Thompson]

Fern and Helly Angel -- Let's avoid personal comments and stay on the topic -- Leningrad siege War crimes or not?

[Fern]

I don't think we are at the same level

Of course we are not at the same level, In Venezuela we never made an holocaust and conquist of other countries as the savage invasion to America and the extermination of our civilizations during 500 years. A crime that Spain never will pay.

Please, stay calm. I am afraid you are missing that people descending from that handful of Spanish "criminals" who conquered the New World are you, South American people. OTOH we, Spaniards, descend from people who peacefully decided to stay at home rather than conquering and colonizing new worlds :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Please, as David ask us, I would like to keep the discussion on topic, so I would like you TO PROVE that Hitler quotes and the book references I have provided are wrong, a forgery or just plain lies. If not please, refrain to insult Spanish people. That's never been a valid argument.

[Ship of Fools]

As David points out, they did not have that option. Well, they had the option to declare it such, but the Germans had orders not to accept it, which means that there was never an option of Leningrad becoming an open city.

People here are going to think I am very stupid, but I am mystified as to how a secret order can have had any bearing on Soviet decision making.

Presumably the Soviets' would have starved their civilians rather than surrender had the German army been commandeered by Mahatma Ghandi himself.

Or perhaps I am missing something?

[David Thompson]

Since the siege of Leningrad didn't turn out to be a war crime, there's not really a lot left to discuss here.

[Voice of Truth]

Greetings

If anybody can please help me with this:Had been considered War crimes the leningrad siege under International law?

Sorry my english is very bad,but i would like to know if in WWII and even today site a city or town is considered War crimes or not,in special what happens in Leningrad..
I dont know if I make myself clear..

Thank you

Personally, I don't believe the siege of Leningrad can be considered a war crime. The Russians can say what they like, but it was an act of war, just like Dresden and Hiroshima. A brutal act of war, but an act of war all the same.

Now, it can be argued that if the city had surrendered, then the Germans may have carried out killings and expulsions of civilians, and that would have been a war crime. But this is pure speculation - despite Hitler's rants, I very much doubt that the city would have been razed. It was too useful for the Germans as an industrial centre, and naval base. Feeding the civilians, though difficult, would not have been impossible.

In truth, I would say that the whole bloodstained war between Germany and Russia was one big war crime, committed by both sides. You cannot just blame the Germans. Stalin was a bloodthirsty tyrant, every bit as bad as Hitler.