losses of minor axis nations

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Qvist
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#46

Post by Qvist » 27 Jun 2007, 13:33

By 30th November 1944 German Armed Forces had lost 175 901 men as non-combat deaths plus 9 513 men executed. Compare with 1 725 616 combat-related deaths (KIA and DOW). For the period that covers Stalingrad battle (September 1942 - August 1943) the respective figures are 417 613 combat deaths and 44 035 non-combat. The conclusion is that taking non-combat losses into account doesn't change the pattern dramatically.
True, but if we are speaking also of those who were evacuarted but later died of their wounds, and seek to find the number of men who ultimately lost their lives during a certain period (although that is not really very relevant relative to most issues), then the impact is fairly large. See f.e p.5 here: http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/overmans.pdf

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Alex Yeliseenko
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#47

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 28 Jun 2007, 08:31

Qvist wrote:Hello Alex
I have some data on losses of the Hungarian 2 army in 1942. Whether It is necessary to declare them here to compare to your information?
Sure, if it is not too much trouble, that would certainly be interesting to see.

cheers
4.23.1942 - 12.31.1942 - 27863 (total lost)

Killed 4669
Missed 2619
WIA 20575

1.1.1943 - 4.6.1943

Total losses - 96016
WIA - 28044
KIA, MIA and POW (about 50000, incl. jews from labour force) - 67972

Regards.


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Victor
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#48

Post by Victor » 29 Jun 2007, 08:07

Qvist,

Like I said, it's like comparing apples with oranges. The big players should not be compared with the smaller players due to different possibilities of supllying and equiping their forces.

IMO losses should be correlated to the strength of the formations involved. Many times Romanian units were subordianted to German Army commands, so it should be made clear that losses for AOK 17 or PzAOK 1 in late 1942, for example, only include German and not also Romanian losses.

You posted several examples, but which could be viewed also from different perspectives:

11.42 - figures obviously do not include the losses suffered in the 19 - 30.11 interval, when most of the Romanian casulties in Op. Uranus occured.

10.43 - only one or two divisions were actually on the frontline, so it is rather inappropriate to compare them with full AOKs.

2.44 - again, only several divisions on the frontline

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Qvist
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#49

Post by Qvist » 29 Jun 2007, 12:09

Like I said, it's like comparing apples with oranges. The big players should not be compared with the smaller players due to different possibilities of supllying and equiping their forces.
It is not a question of apples and oranges, I am simply making a different point from you - what this shows is simply that relative to the size of the rumanian forces present in the East, their involvement in the fighting, apart from a few exceptional cases, was on the whole fairly minor. Possible reasons for that certainly includes such things as very little of that strength being actually deployed in the frontline, which may again be due to problems of supply and equipment. But that goes towards explaining the phenomenon, not towards altering it.
IMO losses should be correlated to the strength of the formations involved. Many times Romanian units were subordianted to German Army commands, so it should be made clear that losses for AOK 17 or PzAOK 1 in late 1942, for example, only include German and not also Romanian losses.
I don't see how that impacts on the issue?
11.42 - figures obviously do not include the losses suffered in the 19 - 30.11 interval, when most of the Romanian casulties in Op. Uranus occured.
No, that is clear, but that can't be helped - and Uranus is one of the exceptions to the general picture. And I do not recall having used the 11.42 figures with regard to the point I made either.
10.43 - only one or two divisions were actually on the frontline, so it is rather inappropriate to compare them with full AOKs.

2.44 - again, only several divisions on the frontline
Which does not however change the fact that it shows that the Romanian participation in the fighting during these months was minor.

The point I am making is a quite precise one, and it goes towards what sort of impact the romanian army had on the fighting in the East. Given that we are speaking of an army of several hundred thousand men who with great consistency suffered the sort of losses you would normally associate with an army Corps, it seems clear that this was generally comparatively limited when that strength is borne in mind. There my point ends and yours begin, but your point does not disqualify mine. If the reason for that was generally that only a small portion of it could be actually fielded due to various problems, this simply makes the same point in a different way, by implying that the overall number of Romanian soldiers in the East in fact says little about the army's actual combat capabilities there.
You posted several examples, but which could be viewed also from different perspectives:
Of course, but hopefully I made it clear that what I was providing was more in the way of broad context than exhaustive analysis. And I do not think that a more detailed treatment of individual points in them could much affect their overall thrust.

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Andreas
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#50

Post by Andreas » 29 Nov 2007, 13:18

I typed this up for Comando Supremo and then remembered this thread.

These are the official Italian loss figures from the Italian General Staff's operational history published in the 1990s.

All the best

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Art
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#51

Post by Art » 29 Nov 2007, 14:47

Have they a breakdown by killed/missing? I suppose the latter category must constitute the absolute majority. It's interesting that the irrevocable losses were more than two times higher than the officially registered number of Italian prisoners in the post-war documents - about 38 thousands:
Image
Yet another reason to question the reliability of the UPVI NKVD statisctics relating to winter 1942/43 period.

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#52

Post by Andreas » 29 Nov 2007, 14:53

Hi Art

I am afraid you misread the table, due to its poor layout forced on me by restrictions on Comando Supremo. The Italian OH has no further breakdown for KIA/MIA.

The irrevocable losses were 84,830. Considering the situation I think it is possible that more than half of these were KIA. However, Krivosheev apparently gives the number of POW as just short of 49,000.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/vie ... php?t=5369

All the best

Andreas

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#53

Post by Art » 29 Nov 2007, 16:44

Hello, Andreas. No I understand that there is no such a breakdown in your table, that's why I asked the question.
Krivosheev apparently gives the number of POW as just short of 49,000.
This includes Italian POWs from captured German camps on the territory of the Balkan countries registered in 1944-45.

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#54

Post by thom » 11 Dec 2007, 23:10

Soviet army reports give 48,000 Italian POWs for Little Saturn (Dec 42) and 36,800 for Voronez (Jan/Feb 43). From those 84,800 only 44,000 have been registered by NKVD until March 1, 1944.

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#55

Post by Andreas » 11 Dec 2007, 23:49

thom wrote:Soviet army reports give 48,000 Italian POWs for Little Saturn (Dec 42) and 36,800 for Voronez (Jan/Feb 43). From those 84,800 only 44,000 have been registered by NKVD until March 1, 1944.
I think you are making a mistake here. 84,800 was the total number of irrecoverable losses, KIA/MIA, it is not the number of POWs registered by Soviet armies.

All the best

Andreas

thom
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#56

Post by thom » 12 Dec 2007, 13:55

The POW numbers I gave come from contemporary Soviet army reports (published in Russkij arkhiv, etc.). Coincidently, they match exactly the official Italian KIA/MIA numbers.

Art
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#57

Post by Art » 12 Dec 2007, 15:49

thom wrote:Soviet army reports give 48,000 Italian POWs for Little Saturn (Dec 42) and 36,800 for Voronez (Jan/Feb 43).
Could you give an exact source, it' very interesting.
From those 84,800 only 44,000 have been registered by NKVD until March 1, 1944.
Right, I completely forgot about this. In addition 41 thousands POWs were liste as "others", so their exact ethnic affiliation is uknown. So we have different numbers in diferent documents, but anyway they are much smaller then Italian irrevocable losses.

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#58

Post by Andreas » 12 Dec 2007, 16:27

thom wrote:The POW numbers I gave come from contemporary Soviet army reports (published in Russkij arkhiv, etc.). Coincidently, they match exactly the official Italian KIA/MIA numbers.
So, that would mean that no Italian was KIA in combat? If not that, then what does it mean?

All the best

Andreas

thom
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#59

Post by thom » 12 Dec 2007, 22:24

The first number is from "Velikaja Otecestvennaja vojna 1941-1945", Moskva 1998, Vol. 2 "Perelom"; it is in a footnote to the chapter on Little Saturn (I don't have the exact page number). The 2nd number is from "Russkij arkhiv", Vol. 4(3), p. 319.

Perhaps the POW numbers from Soviet military reports are inflated. It also seems that the number of Italian KIAs was small - according to the document on Voronez, there were 6000 killed Italians together with 36800 POWs.

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#60

Post by Art » 13 Dec 2007, 17:15

Thank you, unfortunately I have neither of the two books. Is there any info on the number of prisoners of other nationalities (Germans, Hungarians, Romanians) there?

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