Performance of german Flak Panzers

[erenoz]

I wonder the performance of german Flak Panzers especially ostwind and wirbelwind.Assuming a total air superiority in all fronts how did they do their job by protecting german panzers from aerial attacks?

[andy101506]

im sure they were affective as flak gun platforms, but what you got to remeber is that there wasnt allot of the made and there were allot of allied planes.

Do u have any information on units that were issued these?

[PanzerKing]

im sure they were affective as flak gun platforms, but what you got to remeber is that there wasnt allot of the made and there were allot of allied planes.

Do u have any information on units that were issued these?

He's right. They were perfectly effective, but too few to make a real difference.

[Martin Block]

So far I have not come across any experience or evaluation report concerning the performance of German Flakpanzers. But there is an interesting story in the divisional history of the 1. SS-Pz.Div.: During the Battle of the Bulge an armored column of the division was surprised by a full squadron of American fighter-bombers while advancing on a stretch of road that allowed no room for manouvering. The tank and SPW crews could only dismount and take cover.
The column was accompanied by two 'Wirbelwind' which took up the fight. They could not prevent the destruction of several vehicles but the amount of lead that they put in the air at least threw some pilots off aim and made them miss their target. One plane was shot down.
I consider this to be a more or less typical example for Flakpanzer performance. Ground fire was and is a much feared factor by pilots and diving on a target through a stream of tracers and flak bursts probably makes proper aiming not much easier.

Allocation of Flakpz. IV 'Möbelwagen' started at the end of April 1944. The first 4 were shipped to the 'Lehr- u. Ausb.Stab für Flak-Art.' in Denmark (Oksboel training area).
After that all other 'Möbelwagen' (and from late August 1944 also the 'Wirbelwind') were issued to 3.(Pz.Fla)/Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 204 in Schwetzingen, which was responsible for the training of Flak-Pz. crews. After completion of training the complete Flakpanzer platoons were sent from there to frontline units.
This practise continued until December 1944 when Flakpanzers more and more were shipped directly to units, most of them as replacements.

The following units received both 'Möbelwagen' & 'Wirbelwind'
Pz.Brig. 111
Pz.Brig. 112
Pz.Brig. 113
Führer-Begleit-Brig.
2. Pz.Div.
9. Pz.Div. (possibly including some 'Möbelwagen' taken over from Pz.Brig. 105)
11. Pz.Div. (including some 'Möbelwagen' and 'Wirbelwind' taken over from Pz.Brig. 111)
19. Pz.Div.
21. Pz.Div. (including some 'Möbelwagen' and 'Wirbelwind' taken over from Pz.Brig. 112)
116. Pz.Div. (possibly including some 'Möbelwagen' taken over from Pz.Brig. 108)
Pz.Lehr-Div.
1. SS-Pz.Div LAH
2. SS-Pz.Div DR
s.Pz.Abt. 503 FHH
s.Pz.Abt. 506
s.Pz.Abt. 509
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655

The following units received 'Möbelwagen' only
Pz.Brig. 101
Pz.Brig. 102
Pz.Brig. 103
Pz.Brig. 104
Pz.Brig. 105
Pz.Brig. 106
Pz.Brig. 107
Pz.Brig. 108
Pz.Brig. 109
Pz.Brig. 110
Führer-Grenadier-Brig.
6. Pz.Div.
7. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 102)
13. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 110)
20. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 101)
25. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 104)
233. Pz.Div. (taken over from Lehr- u. Ausb.Stab f. H.Flak-Art. (Oksboel Lager) in March or April 1945)
15. Pz.Gren.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 113)
25. Pz.Gren.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 107)
9. SS-Pz.Div. H
10. SS-Pz.Div. F

The following units received 'Wirbelwind' only
17. Pz.Div.
Sturmpz.Abt. 217
12. SS-Pz.Div. (actually no factory made 'Wirbelwind' but self-made field improvisations, used in Normandy)
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. GvB
s.SS-Pz.Abt. 502

Others:
14. Pz.Div. reported 2 Flakpz. IV for the first and only time on 15.3.1945, further details unknown to me.
23. Pz.Div. reported a single Flakpz. IV in January and March 1945, further details unknown to me.
20. Pz.Gren.Div. reported 3 Flakpz. IV for the first and only time on 15.3.1945, further details unknown to me.
Pz.Div. Clausewitz (?): 5 Flakpz. IV (3,7) were shipped from an ordnance depot to Pz.Div. Clausewitz on 14.4.1945. Don't know more details, but so far I found no other records that indicate they actually did arrive. Probably they were assigned to another unit on short notice or were lost on the way to enemy action or whatever.
Stu.Gesch.Brig. 341 (?): 4 Flakpz. IV (3,7) were shipped from an ordnance depot as replacements to I. SS-Pz.Korps on 30.3.1945. However, according to a Ob. West document these Flakpanzers were diverted and picked up by Stu.Gesch.Brig. 341 on 5.4.1945 instead. No further details known to me.


Flakpz. IV 'Ostwind'
It has been confirmed that until 30.3.1945 only 7 of these Flakpanzers had been completed. Their fate is still unclear, but it seems possible some were issued to s.Pz.Abt. 507 which had been sent for refit to a training area near Prague. Further details currently unknown.


Hope I didn't miss anything

Martin Block

[jpz4]

Not really what you were looking for, but the following link has good information about the effectiveness of aircraft against Panzers in Normandy. Very interesting as it simply puts a lot of myths to rest. It also shows how high aircraft losses were. Pretty impressive
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... power.html

[Jakub Tomek]

sPzAbt 507 really took over at least one Ostwind. It happened sometimes during May 5 or 6 1945. There are known three photos of one Ostwind, left in Nové Benátky (contemporary Benátky nad Jizerou, Central Bohemia), on the northwest edge of Truppenübungsplatz Milowitz (Milovice, Central Bohemia). Ostwind in sPzAbt 507 confirmed CO of 1./sPzAbt 507 Rudolf Beilfuss as well:

The batallion was issued tanks of various types once again. Among them were Hetzer tank destroyers and Panzer IV´s with 3,7 cm rapid-fire cannon (blowback loaders).

See Combat history of schwere Panzer Abteilung 507, p. 145.

[TadPortly]

any pictures?

[Jakub Tomek]

Don´t have copyright, sorry. Two of them will be publish in next issue of Czech Military History Magazine Historie a vojenství (History and Military), No. 2/2006, which should be out at the begining of May 2006.

[Bob_Mackenzie]

The following units received both 'Möbelwagen' & 'Wirbelwind'
<snip>
7. Pz.Div.
<snip>

The following units received 'Möbelwagen' only
<snip>
7. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 102)
<snip>

Martin Block

Dear Martin

Just stumbled on this thread - most interesting post but it appears that the 7 PD is in two lists...

Cheers

Bob

[Martin Block]

Ooops, my fault
I have already deleted 7. Pz.Div. from the "Möbelwagen & Wirbelwind" list, the division received "Möbelwagen" only!

Martin Block

[Martin Block]

This is an update to my above post. A few corrections and additions were necessary:
- 5. Pz.Div. has been added
- 19. Pz.Div. was in the wrong category
- s.SS-Pz.Abt. 503 added
- Pz.Fla-Kp. z.b.V. has been added
- updated information added to several other units

Request to the forum moderators: Would it be possible to delete my earlier post in order to avoid confusion?


Flakpanzer allocations to units

Allocation of Flakpz. IV 'Möbelwagen' started at the end of April 1944. The first 4 were shipped to the 'Lehr- u. Ausb.Stab für Flak-Art.' in Denmark (Oksboel training area).
After that almost all other 'Möbelwagen' (and from late August 1944 also the 'Wirbelwind') were issued to 3.(Pz.Fla)/Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 204 in Schwetzingen, which was responsible for the training of Flak-Pz. crews. After completion of training the complete Flakpanzer platoons were sent from there to frontline units. A handful of 'Möbelwagen' were also issued to Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 11 (4 in September) and Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 15 (1 in July).
This continued until December 1944 when Flakpanzers more and more were shipped directly to units, most of them as replacements.

The following units received both 'Möbelwagen' & 'Wirbelwind':
Heer:
Pz.Brig. 111
Pz.Brig. 112
Pz.Brig. 113
2. Pz.Div.
9. Pz.Div. (some additional 'Möbelwagen' taken over from Pz.Brig. 105)
11. Pz.Div. (some additional 'Möbelwagen' and 'Wirbelwind' taken over from Pz.Brig. 111)
21. Pz.Div. (some additional 'Möbelwagen' and 'Wirbelwind' taken over from Pz.Brig. 112)
116. Pz.Div. (possibly some additional 'Möbelwagen' taken over from Pz.Brig. 108)
Pz.Lehr-Div.
Führer-Begleit-Brig.
s.Pz.Abt. 503 FHH
s.Pz.Abt. 506
s.Pz.Abt. 509
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655
Waffen-SS:
1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH
2. SS-Pz.Div. DR
12. SS-Pz.Div. HJ (first 'Wirbelwind' actually not factory made but self-made field improvisations, used in Normandy)
s.SS-Pz.Abt. 503

The following units received 'Möbelwagen' only:
Heer:
Pz.Brig. 101 (remainder handed over to 20. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Brig. 102 (remainder handed over to 7. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Brig. 103 (remainder handed over to 5 Pz.Div.)
Pz.Brig. 104 (remainder handed over to 25. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Brig. 105 (remainder handed over to 9. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Brig. 106
Pz.Brig. 107 (remainder handed over to 25. Pz.Gren.Div.)
Pz.Brig. 108 (possible remainder handed over to 116. Pz.Div., unconfirmed)
Pz.Brig. 109 (remainder handed over to Pz.Gren.Div. FHH)
Pz.Brig. 110 (remainder handed over to 13. Pz.Div.)
Führer-Grenadier-Brig.
5. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 103)
6. Pz.Div.
7. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 102)
13. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 110)
19. Pz.Div.
20. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 101)
25. Pz.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 104)
233. Pz.Div. (from Lehr- u. Ausb.Stab f. H.Flak-Art. (Oksboel Lager) in March or April 1945)
15. Pz.Gren.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 113)
25. Pz.Gren.Div. (from Pz.Brig. 107)
Waffen-SS:
9. SS-Pz.Div. H
10. SS-Pz.Div. F

The following units received 'Wirbelwind' only:
Heer:
17. Pz.Div.
20. Pz.Gren.Div.
Sturmpz.Abt. 217
Waffen-SS:
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. GvB
s.SS-Pz.Abt. 502

Others:
14. Pz.Div.: 2 Flakpz. IV reported once on 15.3.1945 in a quartermaster general (Gen.Qu.) overview could not be confirmed by unit records. Confusion with Sd.Kfz. 7/1 and/or 7/2 could be a possible explanation.
23. Pz.Div.: 1 Flakpz. IV reported twice on 15.1.1945 and 15.3.1945 in quartermaster general (Gen.Qu.) overviews could not be confirmed by unit records. Confusion with Sd.Kfz. 7/1 and/or 7/2 could be a possible explanation.
Pz.Div. Clausewitz: 5 Flakpz. IV (3,7) were recorded as shipped from an ordnance depot to the division on 14.4.1945. However, divisional records found so far do not show that they actually did arrive. Possibly assigned to another unit on short notice or lost on the way to enemy action?
Stu.Gesch.Brig. 341: 4 Flakpz. IV (3,7) were recorded as shipped from an ordnance depot as replacements to I. SS-Pz.Korps on 30.3.1945. However, according to a Ob. West document these Flakpanzers were diverted and picked up by Stu.Gesch.Brig. 341 on 5.4.1945 instead. No further details known.

Flakpz. IV 'Ostwind'
Records confirm that until 30.3.1945 only 7 of these Flakpanzers had been completed. Some of them apparently were issued to s.Pz.Abt. 507 which had been sent for refit to a training area near Prague.
Upon a request by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. on 3.4.1945 OKH ordered the formation of a 'Pz.Fla-Kp. z.b.V.' until 15.4.1945 which was to consitst of 1 platoon with 'Kugelblitz', 1 platoon with 'Ostwind' and 1 platoon with 'Wirbelwind'. To what extend this order was carried out could not yet be established.

All information based on evaluation of German wartime records. Research continues, in case of new findings the list will be updated

Martin Block
April 2008

[Alain Verwicht]

Hello
And this '' Möbelwagen '' please ? Lyon, August 1944...
Can I a suggestion ? Panzer-Regiment 15, 11. Panzer-Division.
Thank you.
Regards.
Alain Verwicht

[Martin Block]

Hello Alain,

if you have location an time confirmed then it should indeed be one of the eight 'Möbelwagen' of the Stabskp./Pz.Rgt. 15 sent to the 11. Pz.Div. in mid June 1944. I can think of no other 'Möbelwagen' unit in that area.
Is there a tactical number written on the side armour? I think I see at least a '3'.

Martin Block

[Alain Verwicht]

Hello Martin
Yes, I confirm the localisation ( a big street of Lyon; to see several issues of '' Then and Now : in british and french languages ) and the date ( during the retreat of the AOK. 19 )
And several Gliederungen of this unit...( again for example, 8 self-propelled 3,7 cm FlaK for the Stabs-Panzer-Kompanie of the Panzer-Regiment 15 in July 44 )
Regards.
Alain Verwicht

[Kelvin]

s.SS-Pz.Abt. 502
Flakpz. IV 'Ostwind'
Records confirm that until 30.3.1945 only 7 of these Flakpanzers had been completed. Some of them apparently were issued to s.Pz.Abt. 507 which had been sent for refit to a training area near Prague.
Upon a request by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. on 3.4.1945 OKH ordered the formation of a 'Pz.Fla-Kp. z.b.V.' until 15.4.1945 which was to consitst of 1 platoon with 'Kugelblitz', 1 platoon with 'Ostwind' and 1 platoon with 'Wirbelwind'. To what extend this order was carried out could not yet be established.

All information based on evaluation of German wartime records. Research continues, in case of new findings the list will be updated

Martin Block
April 2008

According to Jeff Dugdale panzer division in Ardennes volume 4c, 1st SS Panzer division had eight Ostwind prior to Ardennes offensive and also said that 12th SS received four Ostwind in Feb 1945.