TankCommander600 -- Here are more some comments to your post at
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1241518
(1) In regard to the distinction between burning bodies and cremation, I wrote:
There is also another explanation -- that burning bodies and cremation don't mean the same thing. At p. 121 of the same book, Arad quotes from the testimony of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Heinrich Matthes, to the effect that the bodies of gas camp victims were being burned in 1942. Burning the bodies of the dead reduces their mass considerably, while cremation involves turning bones into ashes.
You replied:
I have looked around for this page online (I don't have access to the book at the current time, been away from home- I will have access to it by tommorow night however) and I found a quote from it on a questionable website, so I'm not sure whether this is indeed the correct quote, or even the one you were refering to:
"During the entire time I was in Treblinka, I served in the upper camp. The upper camp was that part of Treblinka with the gas chambers, where the Jews were killed and their corpses laid in large pits and later burned."
Here's the full quote from p. 121 (I scanned it for our readers, since I have a copy of the book):
SS Oberscharführer Heinrich Matthes, who was in charge of Camp III (with the gas chambers), described the killing operations there:
During the entire time that I was in Treblinka, I served in the Upper Camp. The Upper Camp was that part of Treblinka with the gas chambers, where the Jews were killed and their corpses laid in large pits and later burned.
About fourteen Germans carried out services in the Upper Camp. There were two Ukrainians permanently in the Upper Camp. One of them was called Nikolai. The other was a short man, I don't remember his name. . . . These two Ukrainians who lived in the Upper Camp served in the gas chambers. They also took care of the engine room when Fritz Schmidt was absent. Usually this Schmidt was in charge of the engine room. In my opinion, as a civilian he was either a mechanic or driver. He came from Pirna. . . .
I carried out the roll calls of the working Jews in the Upper Camp. There were about 200-300 such working Jews. They took away the corpses and later burned them. There were also working Jews who had to break out the gold teeth from the corpses. When I asked whether a special working group examined the corpses for hidden jewelry and valuables, I answered: "About this I don't know." In the Upper [Camp] in the area of the gas chambers were stationed about six to eight Ukrainians. These Ukrainians were armed with rifles. Some of them also had leather whips. . . .
The people who were brought through the passage were forced to enter the separate [single] gas chamber. Later, in summer 1942, the new gas chambers were built. I think that they became operational only in the autumn. All together, six gas chambers were active. According to my estimate, about 300 people could enter each gas chamber. The people went into the gas chambers without resistance. Those who were at the end, the Ukrainian guards had to push inside. I personally saw how the Ukrainians pushed the people with their rifle butts. . . .
The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine room opened the gas chambers from the other side.'
(2) You added:
If this is the quote you mean, then I would argue that "later" means from 1943 onwards.
Ok, but what is the factual basis for your argument?
(3)
You don't throw bodies into a burial pit THEN burn them, as bodies don't burn like wood, and thus would not ignite.
We don't know how the bodies were burned yet, or whether the burning conformed to your description or was done in a different manner.
(4)
It would also contradict the whole sand/chlorine layer idea (can you imagine laying down a layer of bodies, burning them, adding sand, setting down another layer, burning them...the idea is preposterous, if they were going to do it this was the Germans would have burned the bodies then put them into the pit, not the other way round).
Apparently not, judging from this description (at pp. 92-94 of Mr. Arad's book -- note that this account of body-burning also takes place in 1942, not 1943):
94 BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA
[To regain control over the situation,] and first of all to evacuate the thousands of corpses piled in the reception area, Wirth and Stangl asked Operation Reinhard headquarters to stop the transports to Treblinka temporarily. Globocnik agreed, and on August 28, 1942, the deportations from Warsaw and other places ceased.4
With the suspension of the transports to Treblinka, work commenced on clearing the multitude of corpses piled up near the station platform and around the reception area. It was carried out by Jews who had remained from the last transports, left alive by camp command decision until the cleanup was completed. [Abraham] Kszepicki describes the prisoners' living and working conditions at the time:
At seven in the evening there was a roll call; they counted us—we were about 500. They appointed a Jewish commander—a capo, the engineer Galewski. That day, like every day, the roll call lasted two hours. The next morning there was another roll call. Since first counting us they had instituted some order, and the roll calls were held three times a day. Food distribution was also organized. A field kitchen was set up near the well, and there they gave us half a liter of soup three times a day. We received no bread, but there was no lack of food, since we could take it from the bundles left behind by the Jews brought for extermination. The kitchen food also came from these bundles. . . . After roll call we were taken to work at the big square, where there were mass graves. This time I worked at transferring corpses to the big ditch near the fence. After a few days, the scoop-shovel stopped working. A new system was instituted—burning the corpses in the ditches. All kinds of articles were used to light the fires, including empty valises and the junk which was collected in the course of cleaning the square. The body-burning continued day and night, and the entire camp was filled with smoke and the stench of burned and burning bodies. Still there were endless quantities of bodies. It was necessary to clean the area fully of the remains of the last transports . . . bodies, dozens of bodies, hundreds, thousands of men, women, and children who had been murdered. Corpses of people of different ages, in different positions, with different expressions frozen on their faces the moment they breathed their last. All around, just earth, sky, and corpses! A factory of horror whose sole product was bodies. Evidently only a German could become accustomed to a place like this. I didn't get used to the sight of corpses until the end. . . .
The quantity of bodies in the large square gradually decreased, until one day the entire field was clear. What will happen to us now? New transports aren't arriving. Our hearts tell us that our last hour has arrived. . . . but a miracle happened.. .. they selected eighty of our group and shot them, while the rest, several hundred, were directed to other jobs.5
See also this description (at pp. 121-122 of Mr. Arad's book):
Another extermination facility in Treblinka was the Lazarett. Near the camp's southern fence were huge pits, where the tens of thousands who had died in the freight cars on their way to Treblinka were buried alongside those who had been shot on or near the camp train platform. At these pits, too, the prisoners who worked in the camp during the first stage of operation were shot and killed after a day or so of work.
The need for these pits had stemmed from the high mortality rate inside the transport trains and the insufficient capacity of the three original gas
122 BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA
chambers. After construction of the new gas chambers and the resultant reduction in the time of the train journey to Treblinka, the need for these pits was sharply reduced. Henceforth, they were used for executing those deportees who lacked the strength to walk to the "showers" on their own, as well as the Jewish prisoners from the camp.
Following these changes, the area set aside for execution by shooting was reduced in size. The camp command decided to give the area the appearance of a hospital, which became known in the camp as Lazarett. The Lazarett covered an area of 150 to 200 square meters and was surrounded by a barbed-wire fence laced with branches. The entrance to the Lazarett area was decorated with a red cross, and next to it was a sign, "Lazarett." Inside was a small hut, and behind it a ditch 12 meters long and 4 meters deep. Next to the ditch was an earth rampart with benches. Those about to die were told to strip and sit on the benches. One of the Germans or Ukrainians shot them. The dead bodies fell or were pushed into the ditch, where a fire was always burning, which consumed the bodies.
(5) I wrote:
Also, your use of the expression "quite obviously nothing more than a lie" is interesting. Just as burning bodies is not necessarily the same thing as cremation, a lie and a mistake are not synonymous either. if you have miscalculated here, does that make your post a lie? Or should we consider that since a lie is a knowing falsehood, perhaps you have only made a mistake?
You replied:
The difference between 130000 (the number the pits could hold) and 700000 is so great as to make me believe it was deliberately exaggerated or outright made up. There's no way someone could calculate so badly. At any rate, the 700000 (and by extension the 5.5-6 million figure) should not be presented as fact when they are in fact a mistake. If the mistake was smaller (i.e. 600000 rather than 700000) I could accept it as a mistake. But a difference of 470000? Sorry, but that's a deliberate exaggeration.
Doesn't this assume the very issue we're discussing here – that the mass graves at KL Treblinka could only hold 130,000 corpses? What if you're mistaken? If I show (as I believe I have) that you have erred in your assumptions and calculations, should the readers assume that you lied?
(6) I asked:
What do you make of the trial testimony of the non-Jewish/Allied camp commander, SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Franz Stangl, quoted at pp. 120-121 of Arad's book?:
You replied:
Given that it's a trial, this guy has obviously been captured by the allies, and thus maybe well have exaggerated in the same way Gerstein obviously did.
Actually,
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Stangl was arrested and put on trial by the West German authorities, not the allies. His trial took place in 1970-71, more than 20 years after the allied occupation ended:
Stangl, Franz Paul (1898 or 1908-1971) [
SS-Hauptsturmfűhrer] -- police superintendent, Health Care Institute (
HuPa - Heil- und Pflegeanstalten) Schloss Hartheim euthanasia facility 1940; commandant, concentration camp (
Konzentrationslager - KL) Sobibor May-Sept 1942; commandant, KL Treblinka Sept 1942-Aug 1943; service, Action Command "Reinhard" (
Einsatzkommando Reinhard) at Trieste, Italy {captured by American troops 1945; turned over to Austrian court at Linz for prosecution for euthanasia activities; escaped from Glaisenbach POW camp in late 1947 or 1948; fled to Italy; fled to Syria 1948; to Brazil 1950 or 1951; arrested by Brazilian police 28 Feb 1967 at Sao Paolo (NYT 3 Mar 1967:1:8; NYT 5 Mar 1967:21:1); extradition requested by Austria 3 Mar 1967 (NYT 4 Mar 1967:7:2); extradition requested by West Germany 14 Mar 1967 (NYT 15 Mar 1967:25:1); extradition requested Apr 1967 by Poland (NYT 19 Apr 1967:17:3); extradition contested (NYT 25 Apr 1967:3:2; NYT 28 Apr 1967:19:1; NYT 30 Apr 1967:21:5); impending extradition to West Germany announced by Brazilian government 7 Jun 1967 (NYT 8 Jun 1967:9:1);
extradited 23 Jun 1967 to West Germany (NYT 24 Jun 1967:5:4);
arrested 24 Jun 1967 by West German authorities at Duesseldorf and held for trial on charges of complicity in the murders of 700,000 persons (NYT 25 Jun 1967:5:1);
put on trial 13 May 1970 by a West German court at Duesseldorf on charges of complicity in at least 400,000 murders of Bulgarian, Greek, Yugoslavian, Dutch, Austrian and Polish Jews and gypsys (Zigeuner) between Apr 1942 and Aug 1943 (NYT 14 May 1970:4:4; NYT 30 May 1970:13:4);
convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment 22 Dec 1970 (NYT 23 Dec 1970:1:5; JuNSV Verfahren Lfd.Nr.746; LG Düsseldorf 701222);
died in prison 28 Jun 1971 (NYT 29 Jun 1971:40:4). (Into That Darkness 21; Who's Who pps. 295-7; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich pps. 910-1; Camp Men p. 228; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 162-3).}
