1941, Oct, 6, Orel - Mzensk.
- Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
1941, Oct, 6, Orel - Mzensk.
4 PzD vs 4 Tbr
It is a question about battle on October, 6th 1941. The German group is measured to captured Mzensk.
The structure of German group includes 1 tank battalion, motorcycle battalion, company recon battalion 4 PzD, two divizions 103 Artillery Rgt, a platoon 88 Flak (from structure 11 Flakbtn), 105 mm bat (from 69 corps ArtRgt), Nebelwerfer bataree 53 RGT.
They are resisted with forces 4 Tbr and 201 VDBr.
Early in the morning the German advance party has reached river Lisitsa. Germans managed to captured the bridge. However further they have met massed fire of the Soviet tanks. Tanks were in ambushes. However Germans have beaten off the Soviet counterattack.
Soviet have declared, that German losses have made: 43 tanks, 16 ATG, 6 lorries, up to 500 soldier and officers.
Germans have recognized the losses: 10 tanks, from them 6 - destroyed. They also have lost: 2 - 88 Flak, 1 - 105 mm Htz, 1 - 105 mm gun.
Germans have declared, that Soviet have lost: 17 tanks, from them 8 KV and T-34, 11 ATG, 166 POW.
Soviet have recognized losses: 2 destroyed and 4 damaged tanks.
I shall be grateful for remarks and additions.
Regards.
It is a question about battle on October, 6th 1941. The German group is measured to captured Mzensk.
The structure of German group includes 1 tank battalion, motorcycle battalion, company recon battalion 4 PzD, two divizions 103 Artillery Rgt, a platoon 88 Flak (from structure 11 Flakbtn), 105 mm bat (from 69 corps ArtRgt), Nebelwerfer bataree 53 RGT.
They are resisted with forces 4 Tbr and 201 VDBr.
Early in the morning the German advance party has reached river Lisitsa. Germans managed to captured the bridge. However further they have met massed fire of the Soviet tanks. Tanks were in ambushes. However Germans have beaten off the Soviet counterattack.
Soviet have declared, that German losses have made: 43 tanks, 16 ATG, 6 lorries, up to 500 soldier and officers.
Germans have recognized the losses: 10 tanks, from them 6 - destroyed. They also have lost: 2 - 88 Flak, 1 - 105 mm Htz, 1 - 105 mm gun.
Germans have declared, that Soviet have lost: 17 tanks, from them 8 KV and T-34, 11 ATG, 166 POW.
Soviet have recognized losses: 2 destroyed and 4 damaged tanks.
I shall be grateful for remarks and additions.
Regards.
- Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
Hi Art!Art wrote:Alex, what is the source of the data on Katukov's losses and claims? And do you know that Shein was digging in the documents from Soviet side? AFAIK he intends to issue some material on 4th/1st Tank Briged in the "Frontline Illustration"
It is number FI has already left. I have been a little bit disappointed. There it is few new data.
----------------------------------------------
"Будь русским. Пиши кирилицей" (с).
- Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
-
- Member
- Posts: 8714
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
- Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
Probably I used the wrong term. It is a question that Neumann is a unique source from the German party for Russian authors. You will help me? I do not know any other German research on these fights. Whether there were they?Jan-Hendrik wrote:Any proof for this claim avaiable?Neumann "bewitched" all. Its materials critically were not considered.
Jan-Hendrik
-
- Member
- Posts: 8714
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
- Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
-
- Member
- Posts: 8714
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
- Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
-
- Member
- Posts: 8714
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
I have nothing on 4.PzD materiel losses, but I can tell you something of their reported personnell losses (killed, wounded and missing) in this period. As of 29 September, they had suffered a cumulative 139 officer losses and 3,136 other ranks. By 10 October, that had increased to 163/3,522, or an additional 410 men.Source, HG Mitte IIa reports.
cheers
cheers
-
- Member
- Posts: 8714
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
Re: 1941, Oct, 6, Orel - Mzensk.
KTB 4.Pz.Div. contains this report:
Jan-Hendrik
Jan-Hendrik
-
- Member
- Posts: 8714
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
Re: 1941, Oct, 6, Orel - Mzensk.
And:
Jan-Hendrik
Jan-Hendrik