Anti Tank Weapons

[Napoleon XIV]

On the German side which was more common on the Eastern Front? the Panzerfaust or the Panzerschreck?
Which one would play better in an FPS style game? (Bit off topic but important for my project).

Other than the Molotov Cocktail what else did the Finns on the Mannerheim line c. 1944 use in terms of anti-tank? or any weapons for that matter... (Did they basically use everything from the Winter War?)

What Anti-Tank weapons did the Soviets use? I've been having some trouble finding this one out...

[Daniel L]

Panzerfäuste were more common. In 1944 the Finns used panzerfäuste and panzerschrecke to deal with the Russian armour. The Russian troops used mines, anti- tank rifles, lend-lease bazookas etc.

Best regards/ Daniel

[Csaba Becze]

The Soviets used sometimes the captured Panzerfausts also.

Csaba

[Harri]

Other than the Molotov Cocktail what else did the Finns on the Mannerheim line c. 1944 use in terms of anti-tank? or any weapons for that matter... (Did they basically use everything from the Winter War?)

The so called Mannerheim-line was used only during the Winter War.

Finnish AT weapons during Winter War:

2, 3 and 4 kg "AT Satchel Charges" were used with combustion bottles (two models). Track mines used were Finnish models "Hv-miina m/36", "m/39" and "m/S-39". The last one had a wooden box while the others were metallic rounded ones. The charge varied between 2.8 and 3.8 kg. The blasting load was very high: +350 kg.

Finns had about one hundred 13.9 mm Boys Mk.1 AT rifles which arrived during the Winter War. Also many mixed models were used but their amounts were maybe tens of pieces. Finnish 20 mm Lahti L-39 AT rifle entered service after Winter War but it was tested during the war (both 13.9 mm and 20 mm models).

The most common AT gun during 1939 - 1940 was Swedish 37 mm Bofors m/36. There were 48 pieces in Finland when the war started and more were delivered during the war. Fourteen ancient Russian 37 mm infantry guns were also used like about 20 Madsen L/60 guns and 50 French 25 mm AT guns were delivered at the end of Winter War.


Continuation War:

Before and during the Continuation War Finns acquired a large amount (several hundreds of thousands) of track mines models "Ps-miina m/40 (engl.)" [British], "m/40 (saks.)" [German], "m/41" [Finnish], "m/42" [German], "m/43" [German] and "m/44" [Finnish]. Also German "Hafthohlladung 3"s were used.

Finnish AT rifles - amounts in 1941 and 1944:
13.9 mm Boye Mk.1 - 400, ?
20 mm Lahti L/39 - 500, 1800

Panzerfausts used were of models F1 (Pz.F 30) and F2 (Pz.F 60). The first batch of 1.700 weapons arrived on 11.4.1944. The total amount of delived weapons was about 26.280 pieces. The first 300 Panzerschrecks arrived also on 11.4.44 with 3.000 both summer and arctic rockets. During summer 1944 we received a total of 1.850 weapons and over 15.000 rocket projectiles.

Finnish AT guns - amounts in 1941 and 1944:
25 K/34 and 37 - 240, ?
37 K/36 (Bofors) - 310, 300
37 K/40 (PaK 36) - 150, 200
45 K (Russian) - 60, 250
47 K/35 and 39 - 32, ?
50 K/38 - 0, 27
75 K/97-38 - 0, 46
75 k/40 0, 190 (by September 1944 210 delivered)

[Trommelfeuer]

The most famous military photo ever in Finland. Photographed July 1944 during the Battle of Tali-Ihantala. Destroyed tank in photo is Soviet T-34, known amongst Finnish soldiers as "Sotka". This photo is a sort of "Symbol of All Finnish Defence Victories"

source
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/J ... .html#row1

MFG, Sven

[JTV]

Just to add few details:

The so called Mannerheim-line was used only during the Winter War.

Just to make it more obivious: Winter War was fought at winter of 1939- 1940. At 1944 Finns were first fighting against the Soviets in the Continuation War (1941 - 1944), which ended at September. Soon after that started Lapland War (1944 - 1945) against the Germans.

Finns had about one hundred 13.9 mm Boys Mk.1 AT rifles which arrived during the Winter War. Also many mixed models were used but their amounts were maybe tens of pieces. Finnish 20 mm Lahti L-39 AT rifle entered service after Winter War but it was tested during the war (both 13.9 mm and 20 mm models).

The number of "mixed" at-rifles in Finnish use during Winter War was much smaller then that: One 13,2 mm AT-machinegun and two 20-mm at-rifles. All three were used at Taipale sector in Karelian Isthmus.

The most common AT gun during 1939 - 1940 was Swedish 37 mm Bofors m/36. There were 48 pieces in Finland when the war started and more were delivered during the war. Fourteen ancient Russian 37 mm infantry guns were also used like about 20 Madsen L/60 guns and 50 French 25 mm AT guns were delivered at the end of Winter War.

40 of the French 25-mm at-guns (Model 1937) arrived at February of 1940 (Winter War ended ended 13th of March 1940). Some of the 40 guns had not yet been issued when Winter War ended. Germans captured the remaining 10 guns when they invaded Norway.

Continuation War:

Before and during the Continuation War Finns acquired a large amount (several hundreds of thousands) of track mines models "Ps-miina m/40 (engl.)" [British], "m/40 (saks.)" [German], "m/41" [Finnish], "m/42" [German], "m/43" [German] and "m/44" [Finnish]. Also German "Hafthohlladung 3"s were used.

The Hafthohlladung were extremely rare in Finnish use (only small number bought for testing done in Armour Division around 1942 - 1943). There is no certainty if Finnish troops actually used any in battle.

Panzerfausts used were of models F1 (Pz.F 30) and F2 (Pz.F 60). The first batch of 1.700 weapons arrived on 11.4.1944. The total amount of delived weapons was about 26.280 pieces. The first 300 Panzerschrecks arrived also on 11.4.44 with 3.000 both summer and arctic rockets. During summer 1944 we received a total of 1.850 weapons and over 15.000 rocket projectiles.

All panzerfaust delivered to Finland were Panzerfaust 30. However, there were two versions of Panzerfaust 30: Smaller version F1 (aka Faustpatrone klein) and larger version F2. Finns used both of these versions.

Finnish AT guns - amounts in 1941 and 1944:
25 K/34 and 37 - 240, ?
37 K/36 (Bofors) - 310, 300
37 K/40 (PaK 36) - 150, 200
45 K (Russian) - 60, 250
47 K/35 and 39 - 32, ?
50 K/38 - 0, 27
75 K/97-38 - 0, 46
75 k/40 0, 190 (by September 1944 210 delivered)

By summer of 1944 25-mm at-guns and 37-mm Bofors guns had been withdrawn from frontline antitank use. From these the French 25-mm were withdrawn already by early 1942 and 37 PstK/36 (Bofors) guns by early 1944. The rest were still in frontline use (German 37-mm at-gun because of Stielgrenade 41 ammunition used with them). All captured Soviet 45-mm at-guns in Finnish use were L/46 barreled versions.

Also 20-mm Madsen automatic gun with mount designed for antitank/heavy-MG role saw use as at-guns until early 1942.

47-mm at-guns were saw only few months of frontline duty at 1941.

Suggested reading:
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm

http://www.ankkurinvarsi.net/jaeger/LIB ... PAGE.shtml

http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinATweapons.htm

[Juha Hujanen]

A little background to the pic with destroyed T-34,if you don't mind.

Pic was taken 30.6.44.This T-34 was one of 2 Russian tanks who had gone thru frontlines in Tali-Ihanta battle and was aproaching Ihantala village.Troops in the area were told that Finnish tanks might appear,they would be idenfield by east turned gun and those 2 tanks had their guns turned to East(Finnish Armoured Division had also few T-34 tanks).

As tanks were just few meters away,men noticed red stars in their turrets(stars were not easily seen because dirt and smut from exhaust pipes).Other tank went to right and was soon destroyed.The T-34 in pic advanced one km and then turned back and headed back to Russian lines.But Finnish antitank teams were waiting.First an shell from German Stug of 2./303.Stug.Brigade hit it to side armour.T-34 stopped and man jumped from turret.As he started run towards frontline with pistol in his hand,Panzerfaust fired by Corporal from GunCompany/12IR hit the tank.T-34 exploted.
As Russian tankcommander fled,he ran to private Viljanen and wounted him by shooting thru his chest.Private Arvi Peräsalo was close but his rifle was in his back.In desperate effort he picked large stone from ground and threw it toward Russian.Russian throught it was handgrenade and changed his running direction towards Finns in foxholes and was shot and killed.He turned out to be an officer,some said he was a Major.

The pic was taken few hours later and tanks is still burning.The men in pic are Sergeant Kaarlo Niemelä on the left and Sergeant Heino Nikulassi on right.Both men are from II/IR12 and experienced tank destroyers.Niemelä (age 24 from Salla) destroyed 3 KV and 1,5 T-34 and Nikulassi (27 from Kemijärvi) destroyed 1 JS and 2-T34.Nikulassi was killed next day.

So that's that pics story.

Cheers/Juha

[Harri]

Thank you for clarifications and adds. Yes, Panzerfaust F1 and F2 have only different kind of projectile. The numbers 30 and 60 mean maximum firing distance in meters but the latter one was also more effective.

Just want to add this: IR 12 mentioned belonged to 6th Division which was formed in the north and during the early stages of war fought in German XXXVI AK at Salla front. This division was one of the best in Finnish Army during the war although there are no major differences between them.

[Trommelfeuer]

@ Juha Hujanen Thank you very much for telling the whole story to the destoyed "Sotka" photo, such details are always great!

@JTV Thank you as well, for adding the historical details!

With friendly greetings, Sven.

[Napoleon XIV]

Weren't the panzerfausts single fire? and in a game wouldn't the Panzerschreck play better in a game?
In 1944 when the soviets attacked what parts of the lines where hit? and where were the breakthroughs?

For the Soviets which would be most accurate? Them using Bazookas, Panzer* or something else?

[JTV]

Weren't the panzerfausts single fire? and in a game wouldn't the Panzerschreck play better in a game?

Both panzerfaust and panzerschreck were single fire, but panzerschreck was reloadable weapon (breech loaded). Panzerfaust were first true discardable recoilless rifles (shoot once and throw the remaining tube away).

In 1944 when the soviets attacked what parts of the lines where hit? and where were the breakthroughs?

In Finland?

Karelian Ishtmus:
First Soviet offensive started at Karelian Isthmus (Sovies achived breakthrough at Valkeasaari sector around 9th - 10th of June 1944). At Karelian Isthmus the Finns retreated to VT-defenceline, from which the Soviets break through at Kuuterselkä sector at 14th - 15th of June. Then the Finns retreated to VKT-defence line (northern part of the line same in VT-line), where the Finns finally managed to stop Soviet offensive at battles in Tali-Ihantala, Viipuri Gulf and Vuosalmi.

North-side of Lake Ladoga:
At north-side of Lake Ladoga Soviet offensive started bit later (21st - 22nd of June 1944). It is debatable if one could speak breakthroughs in that area before PSS-line the same way as in Karelian Isthmus, as the Finnish troops (Group Aunus) were pretty much decided to delay and retreat anyway. The Finns retreated to PSS-defenceline, which Soviets broke already at 24th of June. Group Aunus retreated to U-defenceline, where it managed to stop Soviet offensive after some hard battles. In Ilomantsi Finnish troops counter-attacked and managed to surround Soviet 176th and 289th Divisions to "mottis".

For the Soviets which would be most accurate? Them using Bazookas, Panzer* or something else?

The most realistic? 14.5-mm PTRS antitank-rifle (remained in production until 1945, manufactured in huge numbers, still somewhat effective against most German armour at 1944, if used correctly). Unverified info claims that at least some units used captured panzerfaust in relatively large numbers, but they would have been marginal compared to PTRS. What I have heard only few examples of Bazookas were sent to Soviets and they didn't see battle-use.

[larth]

Old thread but interesting stuff here. As for the Panzerfaust and the Panzerschreck - were these available to the German units fighting in Finland? I can't remember ever having seen a reference to them being used in that context.

[M.Rausch]

Panzerfaust were first true discardable recoilless rifles (shoot once and throw the remaining tube away)

This is only completely true for the beginning. Later the tube was changed that it could be "reloaded" upto 6 times. This could not be done by frontline soldiers, hence the fired Panzerfaust "tubes" were collected and sent back.

[larth]

For the Soviets which would be most accurate? Them using Bazookas, Panzer* or something else?

The most realistic? 14.5-mm PTRS antitank-rifle (remained in production until 1945, manufactured in huge numbers, still somewhat effective against most German armour at 1944, if used correctly). Unverified info claims that at least some units used captured panzerfaust in relatively large numbers, but they would have been marginal compared to PTRS. What I have heard only few examples of Bazookas were sent to Soviets and they didn't see battle-use.

Some interesting pieces on PF also with connections to Finland (handbook extract & videos) at: http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum/vi ... .php?t=459

The Wikipedia 1) indicates that the Bazookas were used by Russians:

"In late 1942, numbers of early-production American M1 bazookas were captured by German troops from Russian forces who had been given quantities of the bazooka under Lend-Lease."

The Red Army Handbook (Zaloga & Ness) states that the Russians received 8500 Bazookas from the US, but there is little information on their use.

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazooka - search on Russia

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Polish UR 7,92mm AT rifle in action - nicely described in some accounts:

Lt. Schonstedt - commander of a platoon (5 tanks) in I./Pz.Rgt.15 (5. Pz.Div.) - battle of Pszczyna, combats in Eastern Cwiklice, 02.09.1939:

"All the time we are under fire of infantry from the field, supported by fire from the forest. I request for the order of clearing the forest and I receive it. With the rest of my platoon I advance 250 metres towards the forest. Enemy fire is concentrating on us. We can see single Polish soldiers jumping out and trying to get to the forest. No of them will go far. We fire at the whole of this field from our machine guns, but enemy fire is becoming stronger and stronger. Soon I discover, that there is also enemy artillery in the forest. At once Steinen is advancing towards this forest. I was out of lack and both barrels didn't want to shoot. I can see one Polish soldier, who is firying at us from an Anti Tank rifle. Then the scream of Erber, my driver - he is wounded. Fortunately splinters went right and left from me and Kunzel and didn't hit me and any of us. Erber is hardly drawing 20 metres back, then the engine dies down. With great difficulty we finally manage to move it and withdraw. But during the way back another vehicle of the platoon [Steinen's tank - Domen] is damaged.

After my report heavy vehicles fire at this forest. Fire at the forest of all forces of the battalion is murderous. During our further march we can see hundreds of Polish soldiers. Everything is obliterated. We can see the results of our Panzer attack. Polish counterattack has crumbled into dust."

Source: diary of Lt. Schonstedt quoted byG. Schrodek, "Ihr Glaube galt dem Vaterland Geschichte der Panzer-Regiments 15", Schild Verlag Munchen, 1976.

And now Polish account describing exactly the same event:

Cpt. Czeslaw Puka, quartermastery of 16th Infantry Regiment (6th Infantry Division):

"After a longer moment I started to look around and orientate myself with what was happening. On the right, from the direction of our II. battalion, between us and the village, 5 small tanks firying at us from the distance of around 200 metres were advancing. Heavy machine gun fire was replying them from the forest. It had to be around midday, because the sun was scorching heavily and shining vertically, we had been lying in this furrow for a long time. The tanks passed us. Around 100 metres from us one of them stopped [tank of Lt. Schonstedt - Domen].

While observing it, I concluded that it was damaged. The remaining 4 stopped round it, protecting it. All the time constant fire fight from and against the forest was in progress. In the late afternoon they spotted us from the forest. Their fire moved aside. I decided to try to get to the forest. A medical orderly ran there together with me. Luckilly together with the medical orderly we managed to get to the edge of the forest, inside which, as it turned out, was the 3rd MG company of our regiment, the commander of which was sub-lieutenant of the reserve Dziduszko after wounded colonel Kotarski.

According to accounts of the soldiers, all German tanks were firying towards the two of us. They were mocking at Germans that they cannot shoot, because we reached the forest without wounds. It was around 4:00 PM. I ordered to stop the fire, because it was a waste of ammo. Sub-lieutenant Dziduszko related me the course of events. In the light of his account it turned out, that only him and his company left at the edge of the forest. Somewhere in Cwiklice there was colonel Klimek from 7th company. There was no company of colonel Mostek, only one shooter with an Anti Tank rifle from this company was found. Several dozens of metres to the right one abandoned 75mm gun was standing, probably from the regimental artillery platoon of 16th Infantry Regiment. On the left, where the positions of II. battalion were located, the combat was dying out.

In front of us mentioned 5 tanks. And rather calmness. When observing so we were analizing the situation, the damaged tank started to move. Other tanks also started to slowly move in northern direction. One of those tanks was riding very close to the edge of the forest [Steinen's tank - Domen]. I grabbed an Anti Tank rifle from the anxious shooter and fired two rounds - disabling the riding tank after my second shoot."

Source: Account of C. Puka from WBBH Collection of signatures XII/16/55

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UR AT rifle was able to pierce the armor of vast majority or all of German and Russian tanks in 1939 - although it could have some problems with Czechoslovakian tanks in German service and heavier German (Panzer III, Panzer IV) tanks, as well as maybe with some of the heavier Russian tanks.

During combats at very short distances - however - it was certainly able to pierce their armours (there are even photos which confirm this fact).

The biggest problem with UR, was - however - the not sufficient amount of it and simultaneously not a very good degree of saturation.

In fact it is not even known how many of these rifles were produced (between ca. 3500 and ca. 6000 with lower numbers much more probable).

Poland had got 30 active service infantry divisions and 7 reserve divisions + 11 cavalry brigades and 2 armoured-motorized brigades (10th Motorized Brigade + Warszawska Armoured-Motorized Brigade). According to the Order of Battle of Polish active service infantry division, it should have got 92 UR AT rifles. But in practice this number was usually lower (around 70) and some active service divisions had got even fewer of them (not even mentioning reserve divisions - they often didn't have them at all or had got just very low amounts of these rifles).

In practice saturation of anti-tank rifles in the Polish Army of 1939 was as follows:

Polish active service division - ca. 70 (up to 92) AT rifles per division
Polish 3-regimental cavalry brigade - between 51 and 66 per brigade
Polish 4-regimental cavalry brigade - between 64 and 78 per brigade
Polish armoured-motorized brigade - ca. 43 AT rifles per brigade

Some units (e.g. both motorized brigades) received AT rifles after the war started (after 01.09.1939), so they didn't have them since the beginning.

This saturation can be compared with:

Soviet division during WW2 - ca. 160 (sometimes even 500) AT rifles per division
American division during WW2 - ca. 400 Bazookas per division

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UR Anti-Tank rifle type 1935 - Kb ppanc wz. 1935:

From this article:

http://web.archive.org/web/200710260140 ... i/Wz35.htm



Maker: Panstwowa Fabryka Karabinow, Warsaw, Poland
Caliber: 7.92 mm x 107 DS
Action type: Bolt-action repeater
Capacity: 4
Length: 1760 mm (69.3")
Barrel length: 1200 mm (47.24")
Weight: (empty)9.5 kg (20.9 lb)
Muzzle velocity: 1275 m/s (4183 m/s)*
* Velocity decreased with barrel wear.

History:

The work on high-speed rifle ammunition began in Poland in late 20's - early 30's. After the completion, work began on a suitable rifle. The winning design, kb ppanc wz. 1935 (rifle, anti-tank model 1935) was designed by Jozef Maroszek in early 1930's. There are no exact data on when the work began or how it progressed since from the beginning the rifle and ammunition were classified. The kb wz. 1935 was adopted in November 1935 and 7610 rifles were ordered in Fabryka Karabinow (Rifle Factory) in Warsaw. The exact number made before the outbreak of W.W.II is unknown but the highest receiver serial numbers of surviving specimens are in 6500 range.

In the beginning, the rifles were stored at central storage facilities. The delivery to the army units started in April 1939; the last rifles were delivered to units as late as in August 1939. The orders specified that the crate containing the rifle must not be opened before the start of hostilities. The weapon itself was demonstrated only to a handful of soldiers under oath.

Description:

Kb ppanc wz. 1935 is a bolt-action repeater. The action is a simplified Mauser action similar to that used in KP 32; one of Maroszek's earlier designs. It is fed by a four-round detachable box magazine held in place by two magazine catches (one in front and one behind the magazine). The barrel is screwed in into the receiver and is threaded at the muzzle to accept the necessary muzzle brake (it consumed around 65% of the recoil). According to the manual, the barrel life was around 200-300 rounds, after which it should be changed. The wooden stock is equipped with two sling swivels: one behind the pistol grip and one attached to the barrel band. A bipod is mounted to the barrel just in front the stock. The sights are fixed and set at 300 meters: open rear on the forward part of the receiver and front attached to the muzzle brake.

The rifle was delivered in a wooden crate, which contained the rifle, itself, 3 spare barrels, 3 spare magazines, ammunition (32 rounds), barrel key, and a manual.

The rifle used 7.92 x 107 mm DS ammunition. Weighting 64.25 g (2.25 oz), the cartridge contained 11.15 g (172 grains) of propellant and was topped by a 14.579 g (225 grains) bullet. The ammunition was made by " P.W.U. Panswowa Fabryka Amunicji" in Skarzysko Kamienne. The rounds were packed in cardboard boxed (12 rounds) which, in turn, were packed in hermetically closed cans. Cans were packed into wooden crates. From 300 meters the bullet could penetrate a 15 mm (0.6 ") steel plate mounted at 30-degree angle and still retain sufficient energy to penetrate a 4 cm (1.6 ") wooden board. Additionally the bullet would punch out a 20 mm secondary projectile from the armor adding to the destructive effect. At 100 meters the bullet would penetrate around 33 mm (1.3 ") of armor. This means that at a range of 100 m, a bullet fired from kb ppanc wz. 1935 could destroy or damage any German or Soviet tank used in the aggression against Poland. Other armored vehicles could be destroyed from even greater distance. Contrary to the popular belief, the weapon was widely used by Polish infantry and cavalry.

Other info:

The rifle is also known as "Urugwaj" (or kb UR) which suggests that it was "camouflaged" in the paperworks as an rifle for export to Uruguay.

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Polish infantryman (1939) equipped with UR type 1935 AT rifle:



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German tank hit by Polish AT rifle from the 1st Regiment of KOP (Border Defense Corps) on 02.09.1939 during the battle of Wysoka - Jordanow:

The tank is from 8. company of II. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 3. (2. Panzer-Division):

The original German description of this photo is:

"Der Feind warf nicht mit Eier"

Which translates:

"The enemy was not throwing eggs"

Place when the bullet hit can be seen:

The tank is from 8. company of II. battalion of Panzer-Regiment 3. (2. Panzer-Division):



The original German description of this photo is:

-------------------------------

The suggested ways of transporting Anti-Tank rifles by Polish cavalry:

1. While mounted:



2. While dismounted:



3. Horse transport:



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UR - construction - photos:



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If it comes to the accounts quoted by me above - some of participants were from Polish 16th Infantry Regiment - here a very nice photo:

16. "Tarnowian" Infantry Regiment (6. Infantry Division) - last days of August 1939 - is coming from military exercises to barracks in Mikołajewice:



By the way:

UR AT rifle was not the only famous design by Maroszek - he also designed the Semi-Automatic Rifle type 38M (Kbsp wz. 38M):





38M rifle and UR AT rifle:



Unfortunately only around 150 (although the last known serial number is 1048) of such rifles were produced and sent to first-line units for tests during the Summer of 1939 (so most probably they were later used in combats during the battle of Poland in September and October).