8,8 cm K-Flak auf Kreuzlafette (WW2)

[Manuferey]

I have noticed several WW2 pictures of the 8,8 cm K-Flak Krupp gun from WW1 mounted on what look like the four-legged 8,8 cm Flak 18 carriages.

A report from a young Flakhelfer states that these guns were used for AA barrage only as they lack targeting devices.
„Das Geschütz „Anton“ war eines von vieren. Sie waren veraltete Modelle aus dem ersten Weltkrieg, die in Ermangelung einer Zieloptik und eines Rechengerät nicht in der Lage waren, gezielt feuern zu können, sondern nur Sperrfeuer abzugeben.“
http://blog.schattenwald.eu/?cat=9
(Traduction: The "Anton" gun was one of four [Note: The first one of the battery with the letter “A”]. They were obsolete models from WW1, which, in the absence of targeting optics and a computing device, were not able to fire at a target but provided only a barrage”)

Several questions come to mind:
Q1) What was the gun “official name”? I came up with the title “8,8 cm K-Flak auf Kreuzlafette” to make it sound very German but I did not read it in any German official document so it’s not the gun’s official name.
Q2) When did the installation of the four-legged carriage start during WW2? I assume that it could have started in 1943 with the increase of the Allied bombing raids over Germany.
Q3) Do we know how many K-Flak were modified that way?
Q4) Did the Germans intend to make the K-Flak guns on four-legged carriages mobile? I’m wondering why they did not just bolt the existing mounting on a concrete platform.
Q5) Did these guns used the same ammunition as the traditional 8,8 cm Flak 18, 36 or 37? Or as the naval 8,8 cm Flak L/45? Or other? See pictures of ammunition of pictures P3) below.

Here some pictures including from other posts of this forum

P1) According to the website and caption, a superb picture of a gun in Nordheim (Germany):
Source: http://blog.schattenwald.eu/?cat=9



Note the numbers “12” and “2” on the sides (and “4” below) that had to be used as a simple way to indicate a direction based on a clock (e.g. target at 12 o’clock, 2 o’clock, 4 o’clock, etc.)

P2) Same gun as above (compare the house in the background) but located in Stuttgart (180 km south of Nordheim) according to the website:

First posted here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1860630
Source: http://www.schwarzwaelder-bote.de/inhal ... 6f4df.html



P3) I think that the following pictures show the 8,8 cm K-Flak, not the 105 mm version unless the 105 mm was also mounted on a four-legged carriage in WW2.

First posted here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1163646





P4) A gun with US soldiers of the 327th ECB in Germany in 1945:

First posted here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1164994
Source: http://www.327engineer.com/327thgallery ... enhall.htm



Emmanuel

[jopaerya]

Hello Emmanuel

Good view , did not notice that before

Regards Jos

[schwarzermai]

Hello Emmanuel

ths description is from a adifferent gun but i think its the same base construction of the gun




Uwe

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Interesting!

Uwe: Kreuz looks almost the same like from 88 rather then 105(Rh), Sockel attached to 105 from Krupp is lower then 105 from Rheinmetall? I feel Krupp gun used it's own Sockel...

[schwarzermai]

hello Andrzej

i know its not the gun Emmanuel looks for,
important for me was just the name "Sockellafette auf Lafettenkreuz"
Uwe

[Grzesio]

This cruciform base is similar to the Lafettenkreuz 18 of thhe 8,8 cm Flak 18 in its general shape, but nevertheless it differs in many details.
I just wonder, wasn't the Lafettenkreuz taken from the 7,5 cm Flak L/60?

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

Maybe these guns were old 10.5cm Flak (orfest) static guns from WW1, not 8.8cm K-Flak guns
Why change the platform of the 8.8cm K-Flak guns if they already were mobile in his original gun carriage platform?

See this topic http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=15

Sturm78

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Here is one of Krupp guns on Bettung:

[Manuferey]

hello Andrzej
i know its not the gun Emmanuel looks for,
important for me was just the name "Sockellafette auf Lafettenkreuz"
Uwe

Thanks Uwe. So "auf Lafettenkreuz" instead of "auf Kreuzlafette".

I was thinking more along the line of the "Behelfslafette" when I thought of the term.

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

Hi all,

Maybe these guns were old 10.5cm Flak (orfest) static guns from WW1, not 8.8cm K-Flak guns
Why change the platform of the 8.8cm K-Flak guns if they already were mobile in his original gun carriage platform?

See this topic http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=15

Sturm78

Sturm78,

This is a very valid question, indeed.

I made the assumption of the 8,8 cm K-Flak as they were much more numerous than the 10,5 mm Flak (o) at the end of WW1.

It would also have been much easier to re-install the 105 mm Flak (o) on new concrete platforms instead of trying to render them mobile: just needed some nuts and bolts.

It is also possible that the 8,8 cm K-Flak was installed on Flak 18 carriage (or similar) earlier than 1943 and for training purposes originally, including for practicing removing the Sonderhanger and deploying the legs.


Separately, can anybody identify if the ammunition we see on some pictures are 88 or 105 mm models?

Emmanuel

[Grzesio]

I made the assumption of the 8,8 cm K-Flak as they were much more numerous than the 10,5 mm Flak (o) at the end of WW1.

But how many of these guns were left after the Treaty of Versailles? Weren't they limited to Koenigsberg AA defence only?

[Andrzej Ditrich]

10,5 were installed in Swinemunde(below) and perhaps Pillau.

[Manuferey]

I made the assumption of the 8,8 cm K-Flak as they were much more numerous than the 10,5 mm Flak (o) at the end of WW1.

But how many of these guns were left after the Treaty of Versailles? Weren't they limited to Koenigsberg AA defence only?

Good point, Grzesio.

Germany was forbidden to own anti-aircraft guns under the Treaty of Versailles (article 169) and had to surrender all of them after the Armistice of 1918. However, Stephen Bull in his 2011 book " D-Day to Victory: with the men and machines than won the war" states “some [anti-aircraft guns] were converted to ground-firing roles and retained for motorized artillery.” I don't know where he obtained this information and he does not mention any quantity. But it could have included any type of Flak gun on truck as well and not necessarily 8,8 cm K-Flak guns even if they were mobile unlike 105 mm Flak (o).
On the other hand, we have pictures of 10,5 cm Flak(o) used by the Reichswehr and 8,8 cm Flak L/45 used by the Reichswehr's naval arm.

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

hello Andrzej
i know its not the gun Emmanuel looks for,
important for me was just the name "Sockellafette auf Lafettenkreuz"
Uwe

Thanks Uwe. So "auf Lafettenkreuz" instead of "auf Kreuzlafette".

I was thinking more along the line of the "Behelfslafette" when I thought of the term.

Emmanuel

"Auf Kreuzlafette": my "German" intuition was right. See this picture from the book “Handbuch für den Flakartilleristen” of 1936:



Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

[…] “some [anti-aircraft guns] were converted to ground-firing roles and retained for motorized artillery.” I don't know where he obtained this information and he does not mention any quantity. But it could have included any type of Flak gun on truck as well and not necessarily 8,8 cm K-Flak guns even if they were mobile unlike 105 mm Flak (o).
[…]
Emmanuel

Since the Treay of Versailles imposed two calibers of field guns, 7,7 cm and 10,5 cm, there is a strong possibility that the converted anti-aircraft guns were originally 7,7 cm Flak guns on trucks. 8,8 cm would not have been an acceptable caliber.

Emmanuel