Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

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Rein
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Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#1

Post by Rein » 02 Nov 2014, 19:04

According to Ron Klages, trail of the tiger:
The first Tiger II lost in combat was from the 1. Company of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 on 18
July 1944 near Manneville, France from a large aerial bombardment by Allied bombers.
again Ron Klages in a table called "lost in the West":
18.7.44 SPzAbt.503 3x TigerII near Manneville,France Normandy, aerial bombardment Tiqers nr. 313 and nr. 311
Question: Ron Klages states that there were 3 Tiger II lost near Manneville due aerial bombardment. Is this correct? (on photos they look more like tiger I's)

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#2

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Nov 2014, 19:35

TII's were lost to AP shot on 18/7/44 but there are a lot of people who do not want to hear this and they tend to attribute the losses to 'aircraft'.
sPzAbt 503 were caught in the heavy bombing and lost up to 13 Tigers that day. The exact number or type is unknown but photographs show 1 Tiger 1 suffered a direct bomb hit and 2 other Tiger I became trapped in large craters. Another Tiger I remained in situ looking undamaged but covered by lots of blast debris. I Tiger II is said to have also become lodged in a crater and I TII was a victim of a 17pdr M10 . I Tiger II was rammed by a Sherman. That is 7 and the fate of the other 6 is unproven. Crew accounts say 2 of the Tiger I were penetrated by AP shot just above Cagny but the fate/location remaining 4 is all guesswork


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Rein
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#3

Post by Rein » 02 Nov 2014, 21:34

Hi Kenny,

Ive read some other topic of you about those TII's. (cant remember where)

Im trying to make things clear, let's focus on july 18 and abteilung 503.
Image

according to Ron Klages, 503 lost 7 Tiger I en 6 Tiger II. total 13, the same number you give.

Goodwood,Over the battlefield, Ian Daglish:
In the early morning of 18 July, the dozen Tiger tanks of Leutnant von Rosen’s 3. Kompanie of the 503. schwere Panzer-Abteilung were dispersed under trees at Manneville.
A.Rubbel, combat history of 503:
The Tiger II's were all found in the 1. kompanie......
As the turret numbers reveals (311,313 and 321), they all belong to 3. kompanie.
So there were no Tiger II's onder the trees of Manneville.

How could Ron Klages didnt seen this?

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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#4

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Nov 2014, 21:44

If I remember correctly Ron compiled his booklet (mainly) from TIC I & II and as such the information is dated. A lot of new info has come to light since then.
One TII was lost just to the north of Manneville.

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Rein
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#5

Post by Rein » 02 Nov 2014, 22:09

The first Tiger II lost in combat was from the 1. Company of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 on 18
July 1944 near Manneville, France from a large aerial bombardment by Allied bombers.
This should be?:
The first Tiger II lost in combat was from the 1. Company of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 on 18
July 1944 near ??, France from a 17pdr M10/ramming Sherman/friendly fire: 88mm gun??.

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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#6

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Nov 2014, 22:34

The timeline for the days events is confusing. The rammed TII is down for late afternoon if you go by the Irish Guards War Diary but an air view seems to make it a bit earlier. The TII knocked out by the M10 was thought to be a'Panther' and the TII north of Maneville are both without a precise time reference. Make up your own mind.
There is no evidence at all for the claim the TII was hit by 'friendly fire' other than the account of 1 crew member who was inside the closed down TII when it was hit. He could not possibly know who or what hit him.

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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#7

Post by Rein » 02 Nov 2014, 23:19

Michael Kenny wrote:There is no evidence at all for the claim the TII was hit by 'friendly fire' other than the account of 1 crew member who was inside the closed down TII when it was hit. He could not possibly know who or what hit him.
question came up into my mind: Could you know it if you could measure the penetration diameter?

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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#8

Post by JohnSten » 06 Mar 2015, 18:51

British intelligence made a ground survey in November 1944, to establish how an attack by Heavy bombers could affect a Panzer concentration. The survey covered the Manneville, Guillerville, Emieville area. This was one of five aimingpoints for RAF's Heavies on July 18th.

According to the report they found 15 destroyed Panzes: 4 Pzkw VI (3 Tiger I and one Tiger II), 9 Pzkw IV and 2 Pzkw III, as well as 13 other Armoured Vehicles and 7 cars.

The attack took Place at 0600 in the morning, so this where probably the first Panzer victims of the day.

It should not be a suprise that the 3 Tiger I's are the well known 213, 313 and 322. The Tiger II is the one missing its gun, standing in the middle of a lot of bombcraters. It could be nr 101 or 111. But it was not at Demouville. The survey places this Tiger II across the road South of the Manor of Guillerville. As far as I know this house was used as the HQ for sPzAbt 503 or the Panzer regiment of 21 Pz div. This is 3000 feet almost due East from Manneville. Some 1000 feet North-North-East from the Church at Guillerville. The 21 Pz'ers was located in the orchard to the East of the road between the Church and the Manor. The Pictures in the report are some of those now published at the Fox Company site.

I Guess that any other Panzer that was destroyed by bombs must have been victims at another aimingpoint.

Best regards

JohnSten

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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#9

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Mar 2015, 22:00

This is a 1947 air view and at the junction of the two lines is where the TII was still located. The Tiger is 3800 ft NW of Guillerville and 4000ft NE of the Chateau Manneville (yellow X)
polo71306_03_2015 19_42_27.jpg
row 6 no 15  top of Cagny bottom half litef.jpg
t2503der0005.jpg
The 'rammed' Tiger II
zz   gormns.jpg

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#10

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Mar 2015, 23:58

The known Tiger I victims
Attachments
ZZZ 1compareewe.jpg
ZZ goodwoodbombing2.jpg
ZZZ   Goodwood40004.jpg
ZZ T1503BOMBEDOUT.jpg

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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#11

Post by JohnSten » 07 Mar 2015, 00:52

Very interesting pictures.

But that must infact be another Tank, or something else. Could it be the Tiger II lying sideways in a deep crater?

The report includs a map where all incidents involving the Panzers are marked. According to this map, the place you calls Guillerville is named le Quai. The place with the Tiger II is clearly due South from your 1.16km sign. Left of the intersection between the long strait North South road and the more winding road from North-East to South-West. You finds the Manor on the North side of the winding road and the Tiger on the sout side.

As mentioned the picture from Fox company, showing front end of the tank is included in the report. One will find the picture on several sites, but on Tigers im Focus, Ergänzung 1.Kp/503 France 1944, there is a good copy. In the background you can see quite a few ruined buildings. In another picture, taken from the rear of the Tank you will find that it is standing close to the ruined Manor.

Your position seems to be in a field in the middle of nowhere :) Just meaning it does not show any sign of buildings. In that area there are very few bomb craters. About this Tank the report says:
" A Mark VI tank. A near miss on each side of the tank set it on fire. An internal explosion blew the gun out of the turret into a crater.
The armour along the side of the tank was split, but whether this was diectly due to bombs or to the internal explosion is not clear."

I have read many of your previous posts, and I am really impressed with your work and knowledge. But this time I am quite sure I am right :).

By the way the air view is very nice. Is it possible to blow up the area between Manneville, le Quai/Guillerville and Emieville? I would like to try pinpointing the other positions.


Best regards

JohnSten

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#12

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Mar 2015, 08:17

Moder IGN Map of the area
polo71507_03_2015 05_01_28.jpg
polo71707_03_2015 05_02_39.jpg
polo71607_03_2015 05_02_01.jpg


June 1944 with circled X where a Tiger (seems) to have stopped
400 0240  (4088) crop_stitch tidy GGG.jpg
German map 1944
polo71807_03_2015 05_25_38.jpg
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 07 Mar 2015, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#13

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Mar 2015, 09:13

June 1944 before the bombing


ImageImageImageImage

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#14

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Mar 2015, 09:39

These are from the Ian Daglish Over The Battlefield book 'Goodwood'.

They show a tank attack going through the field and you can see one tank stops dead at a bomb crater.
There is something at that exact spot 3 years later.


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wedfggg0002 sml.jpg (41.99 KiB) Viewed 3965 times
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bombing ,,.jpg

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger I or II lost due aerial bombardment july 18 1944?

#15

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Mar 2015, 12:44

1941 view.
Manneville    IGu.jpg

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