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David Thompson
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#46

Post by David Thompson » 16 Sep 2003, 04:31

Scott -- I tried to give complete citations in my prior posts on this thread, like this for von Oven's work:

von Oven, Wilfred, Mit Goebbels bis zum Ende, Buenos Aires: 1949, vol. II, p. 118

It was reprinted in Germany in the early 1970's with a catchier title before the Mit Goebbels bis zum Ende, but since I didn't have a page reference for that edition I didn't make a note of it. All other eyewitness references are set out in full in my previous posts, except Irving's account, which I found later.
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#47

Post by David Thompson » 16 Sep 2003, 04:35

Walter -- Thanks for the correction on von Helldorf.

As for the number of hooks, the quote I have from the Ploetzensee prison warden (taken from Germans Against Hitler and reproduced in Roger Manvell and Heinrich Fraenkel's The Men Who Tried to Kill Hitler, Pocket Books, New York: 1966, p. 160) starts off (emphasis added for the references to filming the execution):
"Imagine a room with a low ceiling and whitewashed walls. Below the ceiling a rail was fixed. From it hung six big hooks, like those the butchers use to hang their meat. In one corner stood the movie camera. Reflectors cast a dazzling, blinding light, like that in a studio."


Peter Bucholz, pastor at Ploetzensee prison, gave an account of the executions as well. He said:
"I still see them going on their final way. They were in convicts' garb, their feet in clogs, some of them badly beaten and abused. They were surrounded by men of the People's Court and by Gestapo people who did not want to miss a single phase of this rare spectacle. Their cameras recorded every moment, from the walk into the death cell to the last convulsions of their victims. These men, among them Field Marshal von Witzleben, General Stieff, Hoepner, von Hase, Yorck von Wartenburg.

My colleague and I were able to talk with them briefly before the execution. Then the news reached us that Hitler had issued a special prohibition: Pastoral consolation before death was to be denied. This was an especially cruel measure, if one considers how much the comforting nearness of a sympathizing and caring human being, apart from the religious significance, can mean to a human being in the last moments between life and death."


Bucholz's account is on-line at:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/1V-Hours.htm

Anyway, that's five of the victims. Roger Manvell and Heinrich Fraenkel's The Men Who Tried to Kill Hitler also speak (at p. 159) of Klausing, Bernardis and Hagen, which makes the 8 you mentioned.


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#48

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Sep 2003, 03:40

Scott Smith wrote:Shirer gives Frentz and Schmidt, IIRC. Are there citations for any of the others that you imply are primary sources? :)
CORRECTION: Shirer does not cite Schmidt and Frentz here. I don't know what I was thinking of, some past dispute perhaps. He cites von Oven, Dulles, and Wheeler-Bennett.
:oops:
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#49

Post by David Thompson » 17 Sep 2003, 04:44

Scott -- Thanks for the helpful correction.

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#50

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Sep 2003, 07:48

Okay, I'll take each one apart a brick at a time, starting with William L. Shirer.

If there are no objections I’ll not quote Shirer on the execution and the alleged film since the story is already familiar. I’ll proceed right to his sources.

In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Comrade Shirer directly cites von Oven, Dulles, and Wheeler-Bennett; plus, he refers to one alleged prison warder named Hans Hoffmann, an unnamed second warder, plus an unnamed film director and his crew. That's at least EIGHT witnesses so far according to some of the lawyers here! (I'm counting Shirer himself, who says he saw "the film," i.e., the film of the Freisler trial not the executions, at the IMT. But hey, a film is a film, right?)

Besides his army-of-one, Shirer actually cites only these three:

1) von Oven, Wilfred, Mit Goebbels bis zum Ende, Buenos Aires: 1949, vol. II; p. 118.

This is not available in English and I have to get it via Inter-Library Loan. We'll put this one off for later.

2) Dulles, Allen W., Germany's Underground. NY: Macmillan Co., 1947; p. 83.

3) Wheeler-Bennett, John, The Nemesis of Power. NY: St. Martin's Press, 1954; p. 683-684.

Here are what Shirer's other two smoking-guns themselves say:
Allen W. Dulles wrote: Until his death—the result of an American raid on Berlin—Freisler presided over many of the trials of those involved in July 20. The stenographic transcript of the first of these trials, that of Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, General Helmuth Stieff, General Erich Hoeppner, Count Peter Yorck von Wartenburg and others, came into my hands after hostilities ceased and I was in Berlin running down every clue to the underground I could find. I was fortunate in having the help of my friend Wolf Von (sic) Eckardt, then in the American Army and attached to the intelligence staff of the occupation forces in Berlin. Eckardt located a certain Peter Vossen, one of the court stenographers at the July 20 trials, who had recognized the importance of his shorthand notes and preserved them in a safe place. It was about all that he had saved out of the wreckage of Berlin. Later we found a movie of the entire trial. Every detail of the brutal proceedings had been photographed. [Remember, we're still talking about the trial here. ~Scott] The original film was some thirty miles long. [This would roughly be about 14 hours of raw film. ~Scott] Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry cut this down to about nine miles. [That leaves the edited version to about 4-5 hours. That's a hell of an editing job and they did the editing that very day for Hitler's jollies according to the standard story! ~Scott] Parts of the film, especially those depicting the hanging of the military conspirators had been shown by the Nazis to some German army units apparently as an object lesson. [Note the skillful confabulation of the film of the trial and the film of the execution as if they were the same film stock. A film of the TRIAL with Freisler was shown at the IMT, and Shirer claims to have seen it there. ~Scott] The reaction was the opposite of that expected, and there were demonstrations against the showings. When the film was run at a cadet school in Potsdam, everyone, as if by command, turned his back to the screen. The film was quickly withdrawn from even this limited circulation. But it was saved, for Goebbels intended to show it after the war under the title: "They would have deprived us of victory." [No backup whatsoever for these assertions from Dulles. Maybe the CIA will declassify the goods someday when the Holocaust™ needs a little booster-shot. And, the way that memory works, if you interviewed anyone who might have seen the Freisler trial film they would probably also "remember" having seen the executions as well. ~Scott]

(Op Cit, p. 83.) [Emphasis mine. Sources in green. My comments in red. ~Scott]
Okay, so all this comes from spymaster Dulles' buddy von Eckardt, who heard it from stenographer Vossen. We don't have any citation for this stenographic transcript allegedly smuggled out by Vossen or any statement from Vossen with the details about the film and the execution. Was Vossen present for the execution? Not likely. And either Dulles and his blackbag crew are experts in cinematographic film-editing or they have some other unnamed source besides Vossen.

So much for smoking-gun #2...

Let's go to smoking gun #3:
John Wheeler-Bennett wrote: Only the physical fact of conducting a case against eight defendants prolonged the trial into the second day, for the outcome was known from the first. All were condemned to death by hanging, and the pleas of those who sought the bullet rather than the rope were sneeringly rejected.

The end was neither swift nor merciful. Later that same day (August 8) in a small room in the Plötzensee Prison all eight of the condemned men were hanged under circumstances which, though revolting, should nevertheless be remembered. (Page 683, NOTE 3: The following account of the execution is based on that of Hans Hoffmann, the warder in charge of von Witzleben in the Plötzensee Prison, supported by the testimony of another warder and of the camera-man in charge of the film unit, all of whom were eye-witnesses.) There were two small windows in the room, which had no other lighting. Immediately in front of them eight hooks, similar to those used in butchers' shops for hanging up sides of meat, had been screwed into the ceiling. 'It is my wish that they be hanged like cattle', Hitler had said. [No citation given for this alleged Hitler quote. ~Scott]

Present in the room, in the middle of which stood a table with a bottle of brandy and glasses, were officials of the Court, prison officers, some representatives (it is alleged) of the Wehrmacht, [Oh, no! The "alleged" Wehrmacht couldn't possibly be involved. ~Scott] the executioner and his assistants, and camera-men from the Reich Film Corporation, for the Führer had decreed that the film of the execution was to be shown at the Reichskanzlei that same evening. There was no chaplain present. [That is one hell of an entourage present for the execution, and seeing the film at the Chancellery and only one name is ever dropped, Herr Hoffmann's. Repeat after me, "h*e*a*r*s*a*y". ~Scott]

The prisoners were hanged separately. The first to enter was the sixty-four-year-old Erwin von Witzleben, clad in prison garb and wooden clogs. His bearing throughout was courageous, despite the unnecessarily callous conduct of his guards, who pushed and hurried him into the room. Placed under the first of the meat-hooks, his handcuffs were removed and he was stripped to the waist. A short thin string was placed about his neck with a running noose, the other end of the halter being thrown over the hook and made fast. The old man was lifted up by the executioner's assistants and allowed to fall with the whole weight of his body. Then they took off his trousers and he hung naked and twisting, struggling fiercely and in agony, for the fine cord [What happened to the "piano wire"? ~Scott] did not break the neck but only strangled slowly. Yet he did not scream, but only fought with ever weakening strength. It took him nearly five minutes to die. [Hmmm, it took Keitel 24 minutes to die. ~ Scott] (Page 684, NOTE 1: Because of the imperfect knowledge [What, with so many witnesses? Perry Mason, we hardly knew ye! ~Scott] of the circumstances a legend grew up that the accused had been 'hanged on a meat hook', meaning that the hook itself had been inserted beneath the chin of the victim. The present evidence proves [Huh? No death rays, either! ~Scott] conclusively that this was not so, though there is little which can mitigate the horror of the actual proceedings.)

Within the next half-hour the other seven had displayed the same courage [Traitors die such noble deaths, don't they? ~Scott] and had been executed with equal brutality. The camera worked without interruption and by the evening [That must be from "One-Hour Photo and Film Editing; they used the diabolical "German" method, LOL! ~Scott] Adolf Hitler could see [Hmmm, "could see" must mean "DID see" to some. A clever aspersion. ~Scott] and hear [Right from the horse's mouth, folks, the film was a talkie! ~Scott] how his enemies had died. (Page 684, NOTE 2: The Film of the execution has been diligently sought for by British and American Intelligence Officers but without avail. Several copies of it were made and it was intended to show it to select Wehrmacht audiences 'pour encourager les autres'. ["to encourage the others" ~Scott] When it was tried out at one of the Cadet Schools in Berlin, however, the immediate effect on morale was so devastating that this line of propaganda was abandoned. [I guess our source Hoffman has been to the cadet school, too. Or perhaps Wheeler-Bennett knows this from Tarot cards or something? Silly me. ~Scott] Strict orders were given by both Hitler and Goebbels that all copies of the film should be destroyed lest they should fall into Allied hands and it would appear that these were meticulously obeyed. [That explains it! Lest it fall into Allied hands! Oh the horror. No source given for this mystery Führerbefehl either, of course. ~Scott]

(Op Cit, pp. 683-684.) [Emphasis mine. Sources in green. My comments in red. ~Scott]
Nonsense is as nonsense does.

Tomorrow, I'll see about taking Kershaw apart.

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#51

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Sep 2003, 08:34

David Thompson wrote:Bucholz's account is on-line at:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/1V-Hours.htm
Is there a citation for the "manly" Peter Bucholz's account? The Internet link does not say and it is hard to tell his words from his editor's.

The bias is certainly clear, though. Remember that these were traitors who had tried to blowup the Head of State and killed and maimed their fellow officers. Yes, "fearless German resisters" who sent a nutty cripple to do a man's job, who then botched it. Manly men, for sure. Must have taken them awhile to screw-up the courage for their plot, which they literally screwed-up.
:)

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#52

Post by Qvist » 17 Sep 2003, 10:01

The bias is certainly clear, though. Remember that these were traitors who had tried to blowup the Head of State and killed and maimed their fellow officers. Yes, "fearless German resisters" who sent a nutty cripple to do a man's job, who then botched it. Manly men, for sure. Must have taken them awhile to screw-up the courage for their plot, which they literally screwed-up.
Thank you Scott, for making YOUR bias so clear and reminding us all in what sort of frame of mind you generally approach issues concerning the German resistance. Goebbels couldn't have said it better himself.

cheers

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#53

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Sep 2003, 10:05

Thanks. Just to not let anybody forget that they were vermin. GFM Milch even said so at his trial.
:D

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#54

Post by Qvist » 17 Sep 2003, 10:07

GFM Milch even said so at his trial.
Did he. Well, it must obviously be true then.

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#55

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Sep 2003, 10:14

Qvist wrote:
GFM Milch even said so at his trial.
Did he. Well, it must obviously be true then.
Obviously, then, the opinion is not shared only by me and a few crackpots. In fact, there has been a campaign of revisionist history going on to canonize the Bomb Plotters. And it's a very vile revision, if you ask me.
:wink:

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#56

Post by Qvist » 17 Sep 2003, 10:54

Obviously, then, the opinion is not shared only by me and a few crackpots. In fact, there has been a campaign of revisionist history going on to canonize the Bomb Plotters. And it's a very vile revision, if you ask me.
No, it is also shared by certain high ranking Nazi officers, which of course puts everything in an entirely different light.

If there has been a campaign of revisionist history, what then is the original and presumably more accurate historical assesment that the long-fingered establishment has been working so hard to distort? Who represents it? Freisler?

It's just the same as always with you Scott, you can go to the library and check references and do all the clever bits, but what it really comes down to in the end is just pathetic conspiracy theory, far-right opinionating and an outlook on historical events that is set in concrete.

I'm sure you'll have something to say to that, and after you have, we may just as well leave it there I think.

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#57

Post by Peter H » 17 Sep 2003, 11:28

On the alleged film of the hangings David Irving infers that a film did exist but Hitler didn't view it:

His adjutants told me he refused. When Hermann Fegelein brought in photos of the hangings to show him, Hitler absent- mindedly picked one up, realised what it was a picture of, and angrily swept the rest of the heap of photos onto the floor, exclaiming that he wanted to move on -- he did not want to be constantly reminded of the 20th of July.

From memory, I believe it was Otto Günsche who described that to me as an eye-witness, or (more probably) Erik von Amsberg or Johannes Göhler, Fegeleins's adjutant, who died just a few weeks ago. It is in Hitler's War anyway.


Irving then states that the copy of the film shown to Allied/neutral diplomats after 1945 could be a British 'forgery'!

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#58

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Sep 2003, 12:13

Qvist wrote:
Obviously, then, the opinion is not shared only by me and a few crackpots. In fact, there has been a campaign of revisionist history going on to canonize the Bomb Plotters. And it's a very vile revision, if you ask me.
No, it is also shared by certain high ranking Nazi officers, which of course puts everything in an entirely different light.

If there has been a campaign of revisionist history, what then is the original and presumably more accurate historical assesment that the long-fingered establishment has been working so hard to distort? Who represents it? Freisler?

It's just the same as always with you Scott, you can go to the library and check references and do all the clever bits, but what it really comes down to in the end is just pathetic conspiracy theory, far-right opinionating and an outlook on historical events that is set in concrete.

I'm sure you'll have something to say to that, and after you have, we may just as well leave it there I think.
What conspiracy-theory? Even Toland says they were traitors. Which they were! As far as high-ranking vermin who are enamored by the Bomb Plotters, well, you know what I think about them. General von Mellenthin says that at least the plot DID fail, otherwise the German people would blame the conspiracy (the one to kill Hitler, you know) on Germany losing the war and not Hitler. So here is a Heer general who thinks that Hitler was the Dunsel that lost the war but who does not endorse the Stauffenberg sacraments. A child could have killed Hitler, but no brave generals or colonels or counts could be found among the traitors.

P. S. I'll deconstruct Toland's account too, which is based on Shirer, and Speer's Playboy interview, which should not be hard to find on microfilm.
:)

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#59

Post by walterkaschner » 18 Sep 2003, 02:10

Hello all!

By sheer coincidence, while browsing in a used-book store this morning I happened to come across Peter Hoffmann's book The History of the German Resistance 1933-1945 (MIT Press [revised] edition, 1977) which, to my surprise and chagrin, reminded me that I had acquired that very book for my own library some 25 years or so ago, but had forgotten all about it! My memory seems to have been shrinking at about the same rate at which my library (some of which after my last move 2 years ago from a large house to a smaller condominium, still reposes in boxes) has been expanding. Anyway, I have now dug his book out of my library, and it is certainly the best comprehensive sourse of the German resistance that I know of.

Hoffmann is (perhaps was) holder of the Chair of German History at McGill University. His work is a vast tome, 845 pages of relatively small print, and appears to be exhaustive of the sources, published and unpublished, available to Hoffmann at the time he wrote it. Much of its content is based upon his own correspondence and/or interviews with individiuals having first hand knowledge of the events described, who are no longer alive, as well as a mass of unpublished affidavits, statements and memoranda. His list of sources and bibliography encompasses 40 pages of small type. IMHO, Hoffmann's work is an outstanding example of the heights to which the "pick and shovel" approach to history can reach, which I admire greatly, and which some aspire to but, for various reasons, never acheive (witness David Irving).

Hoffmann's account of the August 8th executions is little more enlightening than other accounts quoted on this thread, so I will offer only the highlights (from p.527-8):
Hitler himself had prescribed hanging as the method of execution of the conspirators; until 1942 beheading had beeen the normal method and this was used again later in 1944 ( before 20 July 1944 condemned soldiers were usually shot.) Witzleben, Hoepner, Stieff, Hagen, Hase, Bernardis, Klausing and York, the first eight defendants of 7 and 8 August, were hanged on the afternoon of 8 August in Plötzensee prison in the presence of Dr. Hansen, the Public Prosecutor. Execution by hanging is invariably cruel.....On Hitler's orders, however, the procedure in Plötzensee was particularly bestial.....sound-track film cameras were mounted to record the death of the victims for Hitler's benefit.....The film was taken to the Führer's headquarters at once and shown there. Photographs of the hangings were still lying on Hitler's map table on 18 August.
But Hoffmann's lengthy footnote 26 to the above (appearing on pps. 719-20) is highly informative as to the identity and breadth of his sources. Here it is, almost in its entirety (Unfortunately I have to type it so apologize in advance for any typographical errors. )
[Wilhelm Leithold:] 'Vernehmung' police headquarters Wilmersdorf, typescript, Berlin-Wilmersdorf 16 July 1945 confirms that the first eight were strangled on 8 August and that films were taken of them on their way from their cells to the execution chamber and of the actual execution.....The production of the films is confirmed by Erich Stoll, the film operator who filmed the victims as they crossed the courtyard to the execution hut, to the author 18 June 1970, and by Heinz Sasse, who filmed the executions, verbally to the author 1 July 1971; also by Colonel Eduard Ackermann (at the time in General Buhle's office at Führer HQ) verbally to the author 20 November 1964; by Dr. Schmidt-Carrell in Werner Maser: Adolf Hitler, pp. 255, 472; and by Bert Stegemann (at the time with the German Newsreel service): 'Betr.: Filmmaterial zum Attentat auf Hitler am 20. Juli 1944, typescript, made available to the author by Deutsche Wochenschau GmbH 3 June 1970. Kiessel [Georg Kiessel: Das Attentat des 20. Juli 1944 und seine Hintergrunde', typescript, Sandbostel 6 August. 1946, signed] p.34 also confirms that films of the executions were taken and in addition that Kaltenbrunner had protested but could not stop the photographs being taken....Geoffrey Fraser: 'Révélations sur l'éxecution des conjurés antinazis', XXe Siècle (Paris) 2 (1946) No 13, 3 Jan. 1946 based on information from a certain Hans Hoffmann who worked in Plötzensee prison, gives these details: very bright filming lamps, film camers with two operators, on a small table a bottle of cognac with glasses, short thin cord, the executed completely nude, filming without interruption until the end of the hangings. On 18 August 1944 Albert Speer (Inside The Third Reich, p.395) saw photographs of the hangings - Witzleben and others - lying on Hitler's map table; he was invited to see the films of the executions that evening but did not go. Werner Vogel (verbally to the author 1 July 1971) also saw the photographs in 'Wolfsschanze'; the executed were nude. Vogel remembers Hase and Stieff. In a letter to the author of 6 January 1970 Walter Frentz (film reporter in the Führer's headquarters and a frequent guest at Hitler's evening tea sessions says that the films arrived in 'Wolfschanze' but only Fegelein went to see them. Speer saw many junior SS men going to the film show on 18 August but no Wehrmacht officers. After the war Frentz discovered that the films were still definitely in existence; Sasse (verbally to the author 1 July 1971) says they are no longer in existence. Harald Poelchau [pastor at Plötzensee prison]in Die Letzten Stunden, pp53-4, 86-7, 100, 107-8, thinks it probable that certain of those condemned were named by Hitler to be slowly stangled; this must be on the basis of statements from eye-witnesses - he himself was not allowed to accompany the men in these cases since spiritual aid was expressly forbidden. Ruth Andreas-Friedrich in Berlin Underground 1938-1945, pp.169-70 says the same. Both Poelchau (p.107) and Andreas-Friedrich (pp. 169-70) confirm that films were taken on 8 August; they opened with shots of the condemned men in their cells just before execution...... The American espionage service had details of the method of execution (slow strangulation) and of the production of the films as early as 10 August 1944; OSS Research and Analysis Branch Summary L 48301, NA Record Group 226......

[Hoffmann's footnote also discusses John W. Wheeler-Bennett's report in The Nemesis of Power, which has already been illuminated at length on this thread, and then proceed to discuss various sources regarding the specific procedures for hanging, and the relative suffering to be anticipated from each, which seem to me to be beside the points here at issue: i.e. (a) were movies taken of the executions?, and (b) did Hitler watch them?]

Regards, Kaschner

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#60

Post by David Thompson » 18 Sep 2003, 02:49

Thanks, Walter.

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