Most outstanding German Ally? (EXCLUDING JAPAN)

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Jeremy Chan
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Most outstanding German Ally? (EXCLUDING JAPAN)

#1

Post by Jeremy Chan » 23 Mar 2004, 02:05

G'day all, I'd like your valued opinions on who you believe was the best European Axis military. There may not be such a thing as the 'worst', as each of them had an aspect that was of debatable quality. For example, it is true that Romaian and Finnish forces spearheaded the advance in Barbarossa 1941, but Romania's quality lapsed throughout the war to the point of defection to the Allies. Slovakia was actually the first German ally to declare war on Russia, but ended the war as an occupied nation. Only Hungary remained allied to Germany by the end of the war. What are your opinions? Please don't include Japan as they weren't technically a satellite ally. Preferably don't include those nationalities who fought in Wehrmacht uniform, and certainly don't include the SS-freiwillinge units! Only those who fought as separate allied armies.
Cheers

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Allen Milcic
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#2

Post by Allen Milcic » 23 Mar 2004, 02:30

Greetings:

Actually, the Independent State of Croatia remained allied to Germany until the end of the war (in fact, the Croatian Armed Forces officially surrendered on May 15, 1945 - a full week after Germany!), so you are mistaken in the "only Hungary" claim. That being said, I would like to know what, exactly, your definition of "best (European Axis) ally" is. Is it the state that provided the largest amount of troops? The best quality troops? The staunchest political supporter? Raw materials/economic assistance provider?...?

Regards,
Allen/


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Jeremy Chan
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#3

Post by Jeremy Chan » 23 Mar 2004, 04:38

G'day Allen. Sorry I forgot Croatia. Yes my thread includes too those Balkan states allied to Germany. Slovenia was also allied to Germany if I remember? Because Croatians fought both as Wehrmcht personnel (as mentioned in my previous post) and as a separate Axis military.
In definition of 'best' troops, I mean you could state the issue they excelled in.
Allen Milcic wrote:being said, I would like to know what, exactly, your definition of "best (European Axis) ally" is. Is it the state that provided the largest amount of troops? The best quality troops? The staunchest political supporter? Raw materials/economic assistance provider?...?

Regards,
Allen/
Not exactly the largest amount of troops, quantity doesn't always = quality. But more on the the middle two: quality of troops, morale etc. and staunchest alliance.

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Allen Milcic
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#4

Post by Allen Milcic » 23 Mar 2004, 05:00

Hello:

Actually, Slovenia was occupied and divided between Italy and Germany (incorporated into Italy and the Reich). It did not have the status of an independent state, though there were collaborationist forces therein.

Serbia had a somewhat autonomous care-taker government run by Milan Nedic, but was not afforded the status of a "state". There were collaborationist troops of varied quality therein as well.

Croatia did have the status of an independent "state", and was recognized by all of the Axis nations as such. This was strictly de jure, as the state was de facto a puppet of Germany. The pro-Axis government had little broad support in Croatia though, and at any rate, Croatia is too small, with a negligible population and was barely industrialized at the time, to merit serious consideration for the "best" ally of Germany.

Finland had, in my opinion, the best armed forces of Germany's allies, but the military goals of the Finns were limited, and I think that National-Socialism was not something the Finns embraced as an ideology. It was an alliance born out of military need and nothing more.

Bulgaria refused to participate in the attack on the Soviet Union, but they did assist in the occupation of Macedonia, southern Serbia and Greece. Not a major player in the conflict.

Hungary and Slovakia had limited military resources, though I would rate Hungary slightly higher than Slovakia for their overall contribution.

Presuming, then, that Italy was not part of this discussion, I would rate Romania as Germany's most important European ally, based on the number of troops provided on the Eastern Front, and its ever-important oil fields.

Regards,
Allen/

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#5

Post by Jure » 23 Mar 2004, 23:03

Croatia did have the status of an independent "state", and was recognized by all of the Axis nations as such. This was strictly de jure, as the state was de facto a puppet of Germany
So Germany had much more controll in the NDH than the Croatian regime?

I have a schoolbook at home where NDH is marked as half the country is occupied by Germany and half is allied to Germany, is this a small error in the book or what? :?

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#6

Post by Stephan » 23 Mar 2004, 23:08

I would say Romania. They fought well, especially in the air with own constructed planes and at sea - their feld armies I dont know so much about.

In Hitlers Jackals (a book about the Hitlers satellit-states) did I read they were not any eager ally to Germany, they were forced in. Besides, much of their land was given to Hungary and Bulgaria. It must had taken much of their manpower.

In the book was a sentence of type: after a while the army did get reinformence of tanks, but not so many, because the best of them were sold to Hungary.
- I dont knows the exact meaning. Did Hungary had the right to be the first to pick off weapons and so on? After all, they did get Romanian territory! Or was it economical necessity to get in money??

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Allen Milcic
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#7

Post by Allen Milcic » 24 Mar 2004, 00:09

Jure wrote:
So Germany had much more controll in the NDH than the Croatian regime?

I have a schoolbook at home where NDH is marked as half the country is occupied by Germany and half is allied to Germany, is this a small error in the book or what? :?
Hi Jure:

The political situation in the NDH was more than somewhat convoluted, but I will try and provide an explanation. When the NDH was created on April 10th, 1941, upon the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia, it was, on paper, a sovereign state, with its own government institutions, monetary and postal system, military and police aparatus, diplomatic corps, flag and national anthem etc. The state, as such, was recognized by all of the Axis nations, plus the Vatican and Switzerland had diplomatic representatives. This was the situation on paper (de jure); in reality (de facto), the government of the Independent State of Croatia had very little control of its own destiny. After Italy and Hungary took chunks of territory for themselves (Baranja and Medjimurje to Hungary, Dalmatia + some islands to Italy) the remainder of the state (Croatia proper + Bosna/Herzegovina + Srijem) was divided roughly in half between German and Italian "military zones". In the Italian zone (running south from a line stretching roughly from Karlovac to Gorazde), the armed forces of the NDH were forbidden to operate and civilian authorites were banned, creating a de facto state of occupation in half of Croatia's territory. In the German zone, Croatian troops did operate and Croatian government authorities did establish civilian jurisdiction, but any major decisions of the central NDH government in Zagreb (from military operations to passing of legislation) were, in fact, dictates from Berlin (though German representative Siegfried Kasche). As the war progressed, the NDH government literally existed only due to the continued presence of the German military. The overall support of the Croatian population for the NDH was minimal (roughly 15%), and even after the Italian capitulation in 1943 and the Croatian occupation of Dalmatia the state remained nothing but a puppet regime with make-believe sovereignty. I note that the popular support for the NDH was low not due to a lack of desire for an independent Croatian state amongst the Croatian people - quite the contrary! Most Croats saw the Ustase as a fringe group that took power due to foreign invasion; they were incensed that Dalmatia and other croatian territories were given away; they despised the fact that Croatia was a simple puppet; and a great majority did not agree with the anti-semitic and anti-serb legislation or the horrid political repression in the state. Thousands of Croats joined the anti-Fascist Partisans, even though they were not Communists.

I hope this makes a very muddled situation at least a bit clearer.

Regards,
Allen/

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#8

Post by Orok » 24 Mar 2004, 01:09

Stephan wrote:In the book was a sentence of type: after a while the army did get reinformence of tanks, but not so many, because the best of them were sold to Hungary.
- I dont knows the exact meaning. Did Hungary had the right to be the first to pick off weapons and so on? After all, they did get Romanian territory! Or was it economical necessity to get in money??
The reason is very simple: The Hungarians fought better than the Romanians did in the initial stage of the Barbarossa. Then they marched home and Horthy wanted to quit the war so to speak. In order to lure the Hungarians back to the Don the Germans used both stick and carrots, the latter in the forms of about a hundred PzKpf 38(t)s. At that time the Romanians were willing allies of the Germans who did not need any prop from Hitler to stimulate them.

Best Regards!

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#9

Post by ninoo » 24 Mar 2004, 03:57

Hi,

I think the best German's allies after the Japanese was Finland. As some German officers acknowledge, they got two times results than Germans while they numbers two times littles than Germans.
About the other allies, while they have some good units, as generaly they showed poor performances.

Regards,
Nino

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#10

Post by Brotherhood of the Cross » 24 Mar 2004, 14:24

"
Colonel SteelFist wrote: G'day all, I'd like your valued opinions on who you believe was the best European Axis military. There may not be such a thing as the 'worst', as each of them had an aspect that was of debatable quality. For example, it is true that Romaian and Finnish forces spearheaded the advance in Barbarossa 1941, but Romania's quality lapsed throughout the war to the point of defection to the Allies. Slovakia was actually the first German ally to declare war on Russia, but ended the war as an occupied nation. Only Hungary remained allied to Germany by the end of the war.
...
Cheers
G'day mate,

"Best", is rather hard to define but from what it seems you would rather consider a 'good German ally' those that supported their cause till the very end. If that is the case, I'd say Romania was not Germany's best ally although it could have been if the decisions of the former leaders would had been different. I should state that I am one of those Romanians who consider the defection to Allies around 23rd of August 1944 one of the most unfortunate acts of the Romanian politicians for which nowadays Romanians still pay dearly.

In my opinion the only true German ally was Hungary (and to some extent Finland). I used to live in that part of Romania which was part of the so-called Austro-Hungarian Empire and I can say that Hungarians have more in common with the Germans than Romanians do. Also, I think that it is not a coincidence that the Finnish and the Hungarians belong to the same ancient Finno-Ugric tribe both with strong filo-German feelings. On the other hand we have the Romanians who are a strange sort of Balcanic Latins with a good deal of slav influence. Still it is quite interesting the fact that the vast Romanian majority was quite sympathetic to Germans during the ‘occupation’ as well as the fact that the quite popular Romania Royal Family was in fact of German descent (the Hohenzollerns) which were some of the best leaders Romania ever had (except for Carol II which was a sick bastard). Indeed, Romania received a special treatment from the German troops and whatever some would say it wasn’t because they feared Romanians will burn down the oil fields but because there was a strong (and surprising) filo-German feeling. Remember that in Romania there was no anti-German, partizan-like movement (those couple of hundreds of communists don’t count) and in fact Romania was the only nation (as far as I know) to have a partizan-like anti-communist resistance till late ‘50s!!!. In my humble and very personal opinion the attitude of Romanians toward German ‘occupation’ was a big and pleasant surprise for the German army who most likely expected a Italy-like case at its best. And this can be easily seen in the way the Germans behaved in Romania. As far as I know there is no evidence of executions, abuses, interrogatories and similar SS/Polizei actions in Romania. It would be also useful to take a look at the number of the German forces stationed in Romania during the war with the mission to establish the order if the new ally decides to play-up. (some input from Victor, Dragos?)

However, a lot of nowadays Romanians if asked, would ‘justify’ the 23 August defection as partially resulting from the preferential treatment the Hungarian received during the war including the Transylvania issue. It is true that the Romanians perceived the transfer of Romanian territories to Hungary as a painful episode but if one tries and looks at the issue objectively, the German attitude was quite predictable and justifiable (from their point of view). First of all Hungary was a longs standing German (/Austrian) ally while Romania was opposing to Germany during the WW1, and Romania was not a German ally at that time. As well as the fact that there were quite a lot of Hungarians living in that area. Even now, 60 years after the war there are wide areas in northern and western Transylvania where the only spoken language is Hungarian. I’ve been there on several occasions and it quite amazing, it is like going to another country. All together an interesting experience.

Going back to the German-Romanian relation.
Not only the Germans were surprised by the Romanian attitude, but also the Hungarians who saw this as a threat to their presence in the former Romanian territories (a catalyst for their participation on the east front!). And more important the Russians. To some extent the Russians expected a Romanian involvement in the war because they occupied the Romanian province of Bessarabia just before the war started. However they did not expect the Romanians to continue to fight all the way. And they punished them for that, quite bad I’d say. I dare to say that the savage communist regime that was imposed to Romania was so ‘efficient’ that it managed to wipe-off all those valuable individuals that constituted the back-bone of this unfortunate nation. Some Romanians would disagree with me, but I dare to say that Romanians identity was so ‘efficiently’ destroyed that nowadays almost ceased to exist. Romanians continue to pay for the lack of vision of their leaders (including King Mihai I/1944) who defected to the Allies, thus facilitating the Soviet advance towards Central Europe.

One might say that the Romania’s faith would had been far more worse if they hadn’t changed sides. It is hard for me to agree on that. A nation can preserve its identity by fighting an external enemy (Russian Army/occupation), but when the Enemy comes from within (the Romanian communist monsters) that is a lot more dangerous. Instead of choosing to fight against it, once again the Romanians chose to bend and 'survive'. I am afraid that it is too late though. The oriental influence is stronger and stronger, although the Iron Curtain has disappeared, the civilised Europe seems now farther then ever...

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#11

Post by dragos » 24 Mar 2004, 21:52

I have noticed that the term "Romanian defection" has been used several times, and I must say it is most unfortunate. It must be known that Romania had no signed agreement or convention that would have obliged her to wage war beside Germany. The joining to the Tripartite Pact did not involved military obligations towards the Axis. The reasons of Romanian war against USSR were totally different of the Germany's.

Regarding this topic, Romania was by far the most significant presence on the Eastern Front, after Germany, having deployed in campaign the following forces (in addition to Romanian air force and navy):
in 1941: 16 divisions and 11 brigades
in 1942: 26 divisions
in 1943: 9 divisions

In the military operations of 1941-44 took part a medium effective of 911,193 men, of which 624,740 were casualties (71,585 dead, 243,622 wounded, 309,533 missing)

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#12

Post by dragos » 24 Mar 2004, 22:15

And about the Romanian oil issue, it was a commercial trade agreement with Germany. :wink:

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#13

Post by arpitec » 24 Mar 2004, 23:56

For the quality and the morale vs the amount of troops. I have to pick Slovakia for the Slovak "Fast" Division in 1941 and 1942 under the command of Turanec and then Malar.

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Italy Declares War on Soviet Union

#14

Post by Globalization41 » 25 Mar 2004, 11:10

Rome, By Telephone to The New York Times,
By Camille M. Cianfarra, Sunday, June 22,
1941:
Italy declared war on Russia today. An
official communique issued at noon stated that
"the Italian Government had informed the
Russian Ambassador that Italy considers herself
in a state of war with the U.S.S.R. from 5:30
A.M., June 22."
... At 11 A.M., Ivan
Gorelkin,
the Russian Ambassador, was
summoned to the Palazzo Chigi, where Foreign
Minister Count Galeazzo Ciano
read him
Italy's declaration of war. ... The first
announcement of Germany's attack was given
by Radio Roma. A series of special broadcasts
acquainted the Italians with the text of the
Fuehrer's proclamation and German Foreign
Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop's
statement.
Then the announcer read several Stefani
Agency
dispatches from Bucharest purporting to
give a description of the beginning of the
operations. ... The communique announcing
Italy's declaration of war was read at 1 P.M.
on the radio, which was the only means of
informing the people since no newspapers are
published here on Sundays.
Owing to an
unusually hot and sultry day, Rome looked like
a deserted city, most of the people having gone
to the seashore.
... The news, it was easy to
see, took the Italian people entirely by
surprise, although reports in the last days
indicated that a German-Russian conflict was
imminent. Very few Italians, however,
thought that Italy would intervene for they
could not see how such a war could be waged
in view of the fact that Italy has no common
frontier with Russia.
The gesture is therefore
regarded as one of solidarity with Germany,
which incidentally will enable Italy to share in
the profits that the Axis expects from the
conquest of Russia.
... The Russian Embassy
was also completely in the dark as to the Axis
move. Yesterday, virtually the entire staff,
with the exception of the Ambassador, spent a
peaceful day at Fregena, one of the seaside
resorts near Rome.
Moreover, members of the
Legation, though aware that something was
brewing, had made no preparations to leave the
country, nor had they shown any signs of
preoccupation. ... It is not known yet which
power will take over Russian interests in Italy,
although Sweden and Turkey are suggested.
The exchange of diplomats will probably be
made in Ankara. ... It was assumed that
Premier Mussolini and Herr Hitler discussed
the campaign in detail during their last Brenner
meeting on June 2. Only the date for the
beginning of the operation was left open. It is
understood that Signor Mussolini was informed
by his partner late yesterday evening that
Germany would attack Russia before dawn. ...
It is reasonable to suppose that Italy will have
to convoy German troops, materiel, and
foodstuffs through the Adriatic to the Aegean.
In this way she will lighten the burden of
German and Balkan railroad traffic. At the
same time the entrance to the Dardanelles will
be patrolled, while the German Air Force in
Crete will be kept ready to stave off any
possible action on the part of the British in the
Eastern Mediterranean. ... Germany, it was
stressed, has a formidable army amply
sufficient to fight this war, which Germans
confidently expect to win in about a month.

Military preparations against Russia, it was
said, were started as long ago as last Summer,
when Herr Hitler became convinced that the
United States would enter the war sooner or
later and that consequently Russia, with her
huge economic resources, offered the Axis the
only possibility of withstanding an Anglo-
Saxon continental blockade.
... It is freely
admitted here that what Germany wants is
Russian wheat and oil.
It is not expected that
this year's harvest will be part of the booty
since the Russians will undoubtedly destroy the
crops before yielding to the Germans;
so the
immediate objective seems to be the Baku. ...
While still in possession of considerable
reserves of oil, the Germans, this
correspondent was told, are in need of new
sources of supply. The Rumanian output
satisfies only a fraction of their war needs. ...
This war, it was asserted, is only part of the
general plan aiming at the expulsion of Britain
from the Mediterranean.
The Germans expect
to reach the Russo-Turkish border on the
eastern shore of the Black Sea in a few weeks.
Then, it was said, a new phase of the campaign
will begin. Once at the Turkish border, the
Germans will prepare their stores of supplies
and concentrate their troops for operations
against Britain in the Middle East.

Tokyo, Wireless to The New York Times, By
Otto D. Tolischus, Sunday, June 22, 1941:
The outbreak of war between Germany and
Russia despite the Russian-German
nonaggression pact froze official Japan into icy
silence.
... To the unprepared public, which
sees the European war rapidly developing into
a world war
affecting Japan's own fate, it came
as a stunning blow. ... Foreign Minister
Yosuke Matsuoka
reported to Emperor
Hirohito
immediately after receiving the
announcement of the outbreak of the new war
from Ambassador Hiroshi Oshima in Berlin.
An extraordinary liaison conference between
the Cabinet and High Command is scheduled
for Monday. ... The general impression is that
Japan will adopt a policy of watchful waiting
pending further developments.
... Japan is an
ally of Germany, but Japanese and neutral
quarters agree that the triple alliance, [which]
provides for support when one of the parties is
attacked by a power not involved in the
European war,
does not apply because
Germany was the aggressor against Russia.
The Russian-Japanese neutrality pact eliminates
legal doubt. ... A Japanese military expert
expects Russia to fight a retreating war to draw
Germany into the interior,
but he says the
Germans will stage a hot pursuit and finish the
war quickly. ... Shigenori Togo, formerly
Ambassador to both Berlin and Moscow, thinks
that Leningrad and Moscow may fall, but the
Soviet Union will not collapse so easily.


[Japan refused to declare war on the Soviet
Union, but Italy did. ... Japan declared war on
the United States. Hitler, considering himself a
loyal ally of Japan, declared war on the U.S.,
which swung the balance of power in favor of the
Allies. Had Hitler remained neutral in the
U.S.-Japanese war, the Nazi-Soviet war would
have eventually stalemated.]


White House Bulletin Says Japanese Planes
Attacking Hawaii


[Finland was probably the most honorable of
Hitler's allies.]


Finns Recapture Viborg

[Hitler missed a golden opportunity for gaining a
fanatical ally by not recognizing the Ukraine as an
independent state.]


Russian Prison Director Orders Execution
of 1,500 Ukrainians


[Stay tuned for late breaking war bulletins.
... Globalization41.]


Last edited by Globalization41 on 01 Aug 2004, 18:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Victor
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#15

Post by Victor » 25 Mar 2004, 23:44

dragos wrote: In the military operations of 1941-44 took part a medium effective of 911,193 men, of which 624,740 were casualties (71,585 dead, 243,622 wounded, 309,533 missing)
Note that about 130,000 of the MIAs were after 24 August 1944, when the Soviets continued to take Romanian POWs even if the state of war between the SU and Romania had ended.

Also another 26,000 POWs formed two Soviet-sponsored rifle divisons.

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